Points systems - when is it fraud

[rjthehunter]

No.

Aren't they approved in April? The way I understand, the current quotas are just the proposed ones.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

I get the thinking behind point systems, it just didn't work out how I think it was intended... or maybe that was the intention from the start. I personaly think, it was more along the lines of public comments saying something like this "I have been putting in for x amount of years, therefore I deserve y tag..." then agency's trying to come up with something that made it seem like a guarantee at some point. And base level that was possible. I could be wrong on that... thats just my prospective.

I just feel like a lottery is the most fair then maybe a 3 or 4 year off limit to put in for the same unit if you drew. Do 3 choices, 1st shoot for the stars 2nd ehh we had a really good time still 3rd its called hunting for a reason... but that's just me I just like a true lottery better... if I was stacked with 20 points somewhere I might think differently then I do...

 

[npaden]

How did they force you with gun or knife?

They wouldn't allow me to apply unless I bought a $100 point that already at the time I knew I would never be able to use.

A lot different from your original quote of "I’d say no because people go looking for points. No one made them spend that money."

I sure didn't go looking to buy a point. I can do math and knew already at the time that the points were worthless but to apply for the random side of the draw I had to buy a point in addition to the application fee.

The last couple years I was able to apply for the random draw without buying a point which was an improvement, but now with no random tags and no possibility to ever use the points I guess essentially Wyoming is now resident only for people that aren't near max points for sheep and moose.

 

[seeth07]

A few points regarding the "fraud" aspect of this discussion.

First, if you decide to move to Wyoming, say in retirement or even just for the first year of retirement, your points that you built up would be valid as a resident now. There are moose hunts that can be drawn in single digits and many in the teens as a resident. So perhaps the understanding from Wyoming to continue to sell points is just that everyone will be moving there at some point to use them.

Second, there was a NR moose tag secured last year with just one point. Not fraud if you have a chance.

 

[tzone]

Just don't put in, don't give them your money. Problem solved.

Yep

 

[rogerthat]

A few points regarding the "fraud" aspect of this discussion.

First, if you decide to move to Wyoming, say in retirement or even just for the first year of retirement, your points that you built up would be valid as a resident now. There are moose hunts that can be drawn in single digits and many in the teens. So perhaps the understanding from Wyoming to continue to sell points is just that everyone will be moving there at some point to use them.

Second, there was a NR moose tag secured last year with just one point. Not fraud if you have a chance.
View attachment 319740

Very good point

 

[cgasner1]

They wouldn't allow me to apply unless I bought a $100 point that already at the time I knew I would never be able to use.

A lot different from your original quote of "I’d say no because people go looking for points. No one made them spend that money."

I sure didn't go looking to buy a point. I can do math and knew already at the time that the points were worthless but to apply for the random side of the draw I had to buy a point in addition to the application fee.

The last couple years I was able to apply for the random draw without buying a point which was an improvement, but now with no random tags and no possibility to ever use the points I guess essentially Wyoming is now resident only for people that aren't near max points for sheep and moose.

Personally I don’t see it as fraud I apply for 9 plus states or buy points in every year. I do not buy any big 3 for Wyoming. It was all there in black and white how that system worked so I could see it wasn’t gonna happen they get money from me for deer and elk that’s it. If someone isn’t willing to take the time and read about how that draw works and the odds of the tags they are applying for I don’t feel bad for them. It’s funny to me that anyone on here sees this any different than in a month from now when the I drew x tag posts start coming up and now I need help. I do worry that in another 10 years the change away from this style for the reason you guys listed and ill have wish I had been buying points.

 

[BuzzH]

Aren't they approved in April? The way I understand, the current quotas are just the proposed ones.

Yes, application period ends April 30 after the quotas are set/approved in mid April.

 

[rjthehunter]

Yes, application period ends April 30 after the quotas are set/approved in mid April.

So WY sets quotas after the NR application deadline.

 

[BuzzH]

So WY sets quotas after the NR application deadline.

No. Quotas are finalized at the April commission meeting. Application deadline for msgb is April 30. DEA deadline is in May. Elk apps can be modified or withdrawn after quotas are approved in April.

What's so confusing?

 

[ImBillT]

How did they force you with gun or knife?

Forced to buy the point, or don’t apply. No one forced anyone to apply, but in order to apply, they force you to pay for the point. You misunderstood.

 

[ImBillT]

Wyoming’s lack of any nr random tags in the moose and sheep draw got me thinking, can a point system become fraud? I understand a system doesn’t guarantee anything but there system continues to sell nr points. Unless your a top point holder, your drawing dead, so what is Wyoming selling? If you are just starting out, what are you buying? If it’s nothing, could this be construed as fraudulent marketing? Could point holders have grounds for a class action lawsuit? Does Wyoming have an obligation to change the system or stop selling points? Curious as to what other people think especially some of you lawyers on here, paging @Elky Welky and @VikingsGuy

I don’t know if it could really be considered false advertising as they’re not claiming anything that isn’t explained. Buy it if you want.

What are they selling? Most likely they’re selling an eventual switch to some sort of bonus point scheme rather than pure preference, as once people figure out the current situation they’ll stop buying in at current levels. When will the switch come? Most likely after a combination of two things occur. 1) Point purchase drops off and they need to bump funding back up. 2) Enough people have bought points that they won’t want to go to full random. That way they can continue to sell points. If they changed the system today, there would be lots of people screaming for a random system. If they keep points in place, it’s clearly about money. If they wait until they have thousands of people with 10 points or more begging for a bonus point system, then they can hide behind all the hunters who “want a bonus point system” and say that it isn’t all about money, and then they can go on charging money for points.

 

[cgasner1]

Forced to buy the point, or don’t apply. No one forced anyone to apply, but in order to apply, they force you to pay for the point. You misunderstood.

No I didn’t miss understand. I don’t think fwp showed up at his house with a gun demanding money for a point. People decided they wanted to try and hunt moose some day and gave Wyoming money

 

[ImBillT]

No I didn’t miss understand. I don’t think fwp showed up at his house with a gun demanding money for a point. People decided they wanted to try and hunt moose some day and gave Wyoming money

Work on your reading comprehension then. He said they forced you to buy a point “to apply”. Basic grammar indicates that “to apply” was a condition. And yes, in order to apply, you’re “forced” to purchase a point. Otherwise you cannot apply. Either you failed to understand, or you just wanted to twist that into something that was not said or implied.

 

[cgasner1]

Work on your reading comprehension then. He said they forced you to buy a point “to apply”. Basic grammar indicates that “to apply” was a condition. And yes, in order to apply, you’re “forced” to purchase a point. Otherwise you cannot apply. Either you failed to understand, or you just wanted to twist that into something that was not said or implied.

You guys should all pool your money instead of buying points and buy a slightly used dozer. I hear government agencies respond very well to that

 

[Desk Pop]

I think I'll just post a black square on Instagram, or super glue my hands to the street on a busy highway. Or maybe I'll go throw paint on some famous museum's artwork. These things seem to solve problems, so maybe they'll solve the WY preference points issues.

See you guys later....gonna go to Lowes to get some paint and super glue.

 

[Bluffgruff]

Maybe take your pp money and fund a group trying to change the Wyoming wild/domestic sheep management/conflict reduction plan so that bighorns can return to the... er... Bighorns?

I'm thinking 3-5k bighorns could live there if there weren't any domestics. I made that number up.

 

[RunNGunSC]

I realize the legal arguments and understand personal responsibility, but WY has a responsibility too. Selling worthless $150 points is wrong. The system currently is a fraud and takes advantage of the naïve. There is right and wrong, being able to do something doesn’t mean you should, especially a public entity.

 

[nrpate05]

On the face one could think it is fraud, but all the information is out there to know what you're getting yourself into when applying for points. Doesn't necessarily make it right, however.

 

[TheGrayRider]

Statistical but not probable, every preference point holder ahead of you could drop dead before next year’s draw so you would be in the front of the line and guaranteed a tag in their preference point system.

Happy hunting and good luck to all in the upcoming draws, TheGrayRider a/k/a Tom.