SFC B
Well-known member
Can I get an AMEN!!
Permit allocation Res/NR
- Thread starter Bambistew
- Start date
Can I get an AMEN!!
Bambistew
Well-known member
Bambi, you sort of remind me of a dude who moves from New Yawk to Santa Fe and builds a mansion in a gated community.
How long should one be a resident before they become involved in the future sustainability of a resource? Just curious. The "don't rock the boat" mentality and lack of cohesion with any sportsman group in Alaska is why we are were we are. BTW, about 75% of Alaskans have been here less than 25 years, and about 30-35% of the outfitters and guides are NRs.
To be clear, everything spelled out in my post above is in direct relation to the proposal submitted to the Board of Game by Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. Are they also a bunch of gated community types? Our leader, along with a bunch of other guys on this site sure seem to think they do an ok job of looking out for the average hunter.
I don't mind NR hunting in our state, I'm a NR in lots of places and play by the rules set out by each state. Alaska has no rules other than money talks... for the guide required hunts. The abuse of the system and resource needs to end.
When you have areas where outfitters/NR are the main reason for the depletion of a resource we should limit both Resident and NR opportunity? I don't follow that logic. We have areas where the majority of the animals taken are by NR. 60-80%.
The 4 economic studies I reviewed, indicated that NR funds are multiplied by about 1.3-1.5 times money spent. the $8.5M is based on
$15,000 spent per hunter (sheep hunts range from $9-15k) Figure a few days lodging, a couple trinkets and some shipping/taxidermy work. I think $15k is a decent number.
85% of NR hunting with a guide (next of kin loophole)
10yr avg of 475 NR hunters/year
I will guarantee that if NR are put on a draw for sheep, the guides and outfitters will automatically want a limit on next of kin licenses issued. My bet will be 2-4% of the total issued to NR. Similar to Kodiak bear permit allocation. NR next of kin can apply for 1 of 4 permits issued to next of kin out of about 200 allocated to guided Non Residents. That seems fair...
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
I'm going to throw in my two cents. I think the percentage should be based on the non resident versus resident drawing odds. I think 10 percent is about fair for my home state of idaho because it seems to keep the non-resident drawing odds just slightly below the resident odds.
Somehow this seems fair to me??
My break down would be.
Res. 90%
Non res. 10%
landowners. 0% unless you participate in a access yes / block management type program. If you participate in the program I believe 10% is fair taken out of the resident allotment.
landowner tags are a lot more of a complicated subject with me than nr tags.
Somehow this seems fair to me??
My break down would be.
Res. 90%
Non res. 10%
landowners. 0% unless you participate in a access yes / block management type program. If you participate in the program I believe 10% is fair taken out of the resident allotment.
landowner tags are a lot more of a complicated subject with me than nr tags.
putm2sleep
New member
Interesting poll numbers Bambi. A little bell curve action. Great thread.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
Screwing me out of my sheep hunt? BHA should be a little more careful with that.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Don't fret Bambi, we NR's know to keep our mouths shut and pay up. Some also know econ 101.
spook12
New member
I want to recast my vote Bambi. I thought that this was the question on the table, not Sheep in Alaska!
Bambistew
Well-known member
When the proposal is introduced by the guides/outfitters, the same guys advocating for reduction of NR licenses will be there advocating for your and Lanwboy's tags. Don't' fret. We value your level of competition/success.
BuzzH
Well-known member
As long as the AK guides have a strangle-hold on NR permits...I personally dont care what the percentages are...or if the tags remain OTC in some areas.
If Residents want to limit NR's to a percentage of the tags, drop the guide requirement for griz, sheep, and goat.
The dead elephant in the room isnt NR's hunting with their families, or even the NR's hunting with a guide...its the OUTFITTERS over-hunting the open areas and plugging up the draw areas with applicants.
I'd be 100% in favor of limiting NR's in AK for all tags...just dump the guide requirement.
If Residents want to limit NR's to a percentage of the tags, drop the guide requirement for griz, sheep, and goat.
The dead elephant in the room isnt NR's hunting with their families, or even the NR's hunting with a guide...its the OUTFITTERS over-hunting the open areas and plugging up the draw areas with applicants.
I'd be 100% in favor of limiting NR's in AK for all tags...just dump the guide requirement.
Bambistew
Well-known member
I want to recast my vote Bambi. I thought that this was the question on the table, not Sheep in Alaska!
A leading question, perhaps? Wanted to see how hunters valued their tags, not others. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors sheep...
Bambistew
Well-known member
You would have a better chance of getting corner crossing passed. I'd be 100% for eliminating the guide requirement as well, but it won't happen.
Guides won't regulate themselves, or manage their own areas, nor will they push for the concession program, so our hands are tied... limit permits, limit pressure. Done deal.
I care about the resource being raped and pillaged, more than I care about someone going on vacation for a week.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
A leading question, perhaps? Wanted to see how hunters valued their tags, not others. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors sheep...
That only happens in Montana.
BuzzH
Well-known member
I'm guessing you're right, but we'll see how successful you are limiting outfitters...
As the poster above mentioned 35% for nr in Colorado is high, since its a short 5 or 9 day season. I like Montana and Wyoming where its under 10%. I do think residents should/could pay more in states like Montana. Most hunters will spend way more in fuel, lodging, and beer than the increase of 10-15% per tag.
indian larry
Member
Couldn't agree more and thats about all its come down to for options.
BuzzH
Well-known member
What?
Montana probably gives out over 20K deer/elk tags a year...up to 10% on LQ stuff.
Wyoming, before the leftovers are sold:
Pronghorn: Buck and doe/fawn, 20%
Deer: Buck and doe/fawn, 20%
Elk: Bull and cow/calf, 16% of the limited quota licenses, a total of 7,250 non-resident licenses. General licenses will be issued up to the 7,250 quota after the limited quota license draw.
Moose: 20%
Mountain goat: 25%
Bison: 20%
Sheep:25%
What NR's end up with after all the leftover tags are sold:
Wyoming...IIRC around 60% of Pronghorn tags go to NR, 218-20% of LQ elk and deer tags, Region wide deer permits are several thousand.
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25% of Montana residents hunt and there is one million residents and the MFW&P issue 17,500 combo tags, so thats more in line with 10% quota to nr. My point was comparing to Colorado that splits it 65/35 to Montana/Wyoming that limits/caps nr hunter numbers and allows longer season than 5-9 days. Colorado still has twice as many tags going to the nr pool as other states in addition to unlimited otc elk tags makes it a tough place to be a resident hunter. But by March 15th I will be buying in state Montana resident tags. Good day
BuzzH
Well-known member
Theres lots more than 17,500...a lot more.
You're not taking into account NR native licenses (unlimited), coming home to hunt(500) deer/elk combo, coming home to hunt deer combo (500), NR landowner sponsored deer A tags (2000), NR student licenses(unlimited), NR general deer combinations (4,600)...and I'm sure theres some I forgot. Thats already crowding 25,000 not taking into account NR native and NR student licenses.
Plus, NR's can apply for elk B-tags and IIRC some are sold OTC.
Its wayyyy more than 10% in Montana and wayyyy more than 10% in Wyoming.
Wyoming allocation with Bison, Sheep, Moose, and Goat is off the charts generous to NR's.
Colorado doesnt have a monopoly on being over-generous to non-residents with their tags. You'll have your eyes opened when you become a Montana Resident and take to the field. Montana is not an easy state to be a Resident hunter either...and I dont have to guess about that.
You're not taking into account NR native licenses (unlimited), coming home to hunt(500) deer/elk combo, coming home to hunt deer combo (500), NR landowner sponsored deer A tags (2000), NR student licenses(unlimited), NR general deer combinations (4,600)...and I'm sure theres some I forgot. Thats already crowding 25,000 not taking into account NR native and NR student licenses.
Plus, NR's can apply for elk B-tags and IIRC some are sold OTC.
Its wayyyy more than 10% in Montana and wayyyy more than 10% in Wyoming.
Wyoming allocation with Bison, Sheep, Moose, and Goat is off the charts generous to NR's.
Colorado doesnt have a monopoly on being over-generous to non-residents with their tags. You'll have your eyes opened when you become a Montana Resident and take to the field. Montana is not an easy state to be a Resident hunter either...and I dont have to guess about that.
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FWP provided data at the last legislative session that they sold deer and/or elk tags to 26,000 different non-residents. They sold deer and/or elk tags to 115,000 residents. Total elk and/or deer hunters afield were 141,000. That puts the NR deer and/or elk hunters at 18.4% of the total in Montana.
That being said, I still think NRs should be provided their own quota, and drawing, for the limited entry tags, as happens in WY, NV, and UT. The "up to 10%" rule MT uses is lame.
Ok got it. 25, 000 nr tags plus wayy more and about 250, 000 resident hunters, so like 10%? I've hunted in Montana in 1995, 2001, 2003, 2006, and this year for 4 days, always seen game and shot bucks. Mostly go after whitetail in the northwest. Have seen cows and spikes while elk hunting, but no branched bulls yet. Mostly hunt areas with seasonal road closures and see few others hunters during the weekdays. I'd prefer to hunt in Montana or Wyoming anyday over liberal Colorado. They allow smoking dope and gun control, but you can't spring bear hunt and you get a deer tag every 3 years if you don't go out and buy a $2500 voucher for the 4th season and get to hunt for 5 days.:hump:
