Non-resident outfitter license (MT) Bill is up for hearing 2/2/2021 (SB 143)

[rogerthat]

How do I get my moose tag? I shot one back in 2002 that tasted like a swamp rat. Gosh I love all this new opportunity MT legislature is providing! I have only been able to manage to hunt for 6 months each year with 12 tags for the last 28 years in this state. Sure glad the MT legislature has their eye focused squarely on the problem! What a bunch of tools

 

[Gerald Martin]

How do I get my moose tag? I shot one back in 2002 that tasted like a swamp rat. Gosh I love all this new opportunity MT legislature is providing! I have only been able to manage to hunt for 6 months each year with 12 tags for the last 28 years in this state. Sure glad the MT legislature has their eye focused squarely on the problem! What a bunch of tools

Roger that, Rogerthat. My memory of eating my 2003 bull is that it was tougher than whang leather and gave me gas. My wife’s 2017 bull was delicious.
I need a better eater for the sake of feeding my kids.

 

[sacountry]

Over the last couple months I had offered to every legislator who would listen, to any outfitter who would listen, and many of the landowner groups that I, and many other hunters, were interested in meeting over the next couple of years to try address concerns that could solve problems that actually existed (not manufactured problems). Things unfolding at the last minute, in this manner, makes it pretty hard to think that any future offers for discussion would be with people you feel deal in good faith.

With the sour taste of this bill, some may not see all the hunting, access, and conservation that was protected from really bad bills, but I'd ask all of you to take a look at the really bad bills that were killed this session. The overwhelming odds of how this legislature was stacked mirrored the Finns versus the Russians in the Winter War of 1939.

It not seem that way right now, but measured against the onslaught of anti-hunting, anti-access, anti-conservation, hunters and anglers represented themselves very well. Don't let one bill, however bitter, passed at the last hour, discount how much was protected.

Lots of assessment to make from this session and mount a better strategy going forward. It has become more obvious than ever who can be trusted, who is on the side of the average hunter, and whose prioritizes wildlife and the resource.

Hopefully, the many disengaged hunters and anglers who use their dislike of politics as reason to not be involved will see ask questions when they see some of this mess unfold. And when they ask the question, "How did this happen?" they will resolve to not let it happen again.

It has been a draining few months. So many worked so hard this session and many worked frantically the last few days when word came that this mess might be served up at the last minute. I cannot thank all of you for the work you did. It is remarkable to see how effective you were, doing so much with so little. I got to meet some of you in person and that was worth the trips and miles traveled.

Let's resolve to play some offense in the coming years. SISU!

Just to add one more bit of optimism. The best offensive play we saw was on HB505. 17 different hunting and fishing organizations banded together along with a bunch of individual hunters to kill that thing. While I appreciate Randy's Finns v Rooskis analogy it dates me a little. This felt more like Battlestar Galactica taking on the Cylons.

Reality is that we're pretty fragmented but when united we can get stuff done. We need MWF, Backcountry Hunters, and the rest to become a more unified force in Helena. RMEF has a brand that gets ears to listen....but apparently RMEF prefers to operate subversively when it comes to politics so we need something else. I hate the acronym and I cringe at saying it, but we could have used a well funded, well respected, Super PAC this legislative session.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Sent Greg my request to have him veto this bill. Used the governor webpage submit form that likely ends up on the proverbial round file but I sent it anyway. @Ben Lamb let's go hunt giant elk this fall.

I'm out for this year, but in for next. Thinking there's a trip back home for trout this summer or birds this fall, though.

 

[RobG]

So it passed. We lost.

Get over it & write the Governor asking him to veto it.

If he signs it, then vote record is clear who was listening to hunters, and who was pandering to outfitters.

Time to hold them accountable.

Yes, hold them accountable! Never vote for a republican again! Hey look, a squirrel! And he's taking my guns!

 

[Ben Lamb]

Yes, hold them accountable! Never vote for a republican again! Hey look, a squirrel! And he's taking my guns!

There is 18 months between now and the next legislature. If folks took 1/2 the time they did during the session to reach out and talk with those electeds, build relationships & develop trust, you'd be surprised how things could turn around.

In every state. Not just MT. Apathy is a politicians best friend. We need a coordinated effort to build those relationships across the US so that politicians stop hearing from just the orgs who can put on whiskey & cheese events or special shooting events. Those large groups do some good work, but they take a walk when things get difficult, because they're protecting their organization first, and not the resource.

In 1936, thousands of Americans met in Washington D.C. at the first North American Wildlife Conference. Out of that, a major movement was created that got us scientific management of wildlife and abundant populations to boot. That effect lasted for 90 years. It's time to bring back the heat from those efforts.

 

[BlazerBeam]

So could someone smarter than myself spell out what exactly got rammed through with this bill? I have read the text but I don't think it was the amended version. What exactly does this do for outfitters, non resident hunters, resident hunters, # of tags, etc. I am gathering that it allows NR's who are using an outfitter to buy two preference points? what else that specifically applies to Elk/Deer hunting. Thanks

 

[MThuntr]

This year it allows unlimited number of NR hunter committed to an outfitter to buy a big game combo license (estimated 3000 by those who know the stats)
ups the Block management max rate from 15 to $25K
reduces the number of hunters a landowner must allow before they qualify for a landowner tag from 4 to 3
NR hunter who commits to an outfitter can buy 2 preference points while non-outfitted hunters can only get 1
doubles the cost of NR preference points
removes the waiting period after buying bear and mtn lion tags.

There are more but I can't remember the entire list

 

[Sytes]

What a cluster.
It's one battle within the war. Need to stay engaged.

Unfortunately, while it engaged some, the continuous communication does not fit the typical Montana outdoor conservationist. Especially when it pits outdoor Outfitter support against... eh? NR DIY?
Within the common scheme - Montana resident hunters are fairly superficial and see this as standing up for our "Resident" Outfitter employer/employees and a pushback against NR Washington, Oregon, Idaho, etc plates in resident hunter locations.

Add the political factor as many of our politically driven Hunt Talk members have eluded to or outright declared... The devisive arrogance of both party voters have led us to this junction. Extremes call for counter extremes. While those voters who pander a single party proclaim "terrible atrocities" by the other, those of us in the middle capable of voting outside party devotion continue our fight for what's best.

Sick...

 

[idahohuntr]

Is it just this year the NR hunters committed to an outfitter are allowed to buy a big game combo and in future years it will be a random draw, just the NR Outfitted hunters get to buy 2 pp? Or its an every year thing...any NR who commits to an outfitter will be granted a Big Game Combo, essentially bypassing the draw?

 

[Ben Lamb]

This year it allows unlimited number of NR hunter committed to an outfitter to buy a big game combo license (estimated 3000 by those who know the stats)
ups the Block management max rate from 15 to $25K
reduces the number of hunters a landowner must allow before they qualify for a landowner tag from 4 to 3
NR hunter who commits to an outfitter can buy 2 preference points while non-outfitted hunters can only get 1
doubles the cost of NR preference points
removes the waiting period after buying bear and mtn lion tags.

There are more but I can't remember the entire list

Allows nonresident landowners to run hounds on public lands without a D-4 hound license

Forces FWP to spend $1 million per year on stocking pheasants on WMA's instead of working on improving habitat.

 

[Falcon75]

So is this like when point schemes started 20 30 years ago and I need to get in on the ground floor and go on a guided hunt this year or be left in the dust always one point or 2x behind? Can I still sign up and get a tag this year?

 

[Ben Lamb]

What a cluster.
It's one battle within the war. Need to stay engaged.

Unfortunately, while it engaged some, the continuous communication does not fit the typical Montana outdoor conservationist. Especially when it pits outdoor Outfitter support against... eh? NR DIY?
Within the common scheme - Montana resident hunters are fairly superficial and see this as standing up for our "Resident" Outfitter employer/employees and a pushback against NR Washington, Oregon, Idaho, etc plates in resident hunter locations.

Add the political factor as many of our politically driven Hunt Talk members have eluded to or outright declared... The devisive arrogance of both party voters have led us to this junction. Extremes call for counter extremes. While those voters who pander a single party proclaim "terrible atrocities" by the other, those of us in the middle capable of voting outside party devotion continue our fight for what's best.

Sick...

If you look at that senate vote, Brad Molnar, who was enemy #1 at one point over the crossbow bill, was on the right side of this. Jeff Welborn, who is usually on our side was against us. That's a big thing to recognize, because these outcomes aren't pre-determined just by party. Some Dems were voting for the crossbow bill as well, are they enemies now?

Yes, elections have consequences, but honestly, this session was about average for wildlife with a slight tick upwards due to a change in the Governor's office. The budget was good and there's an extra $5 million or so for access & conservation.

These allocation fights will continue because there are special interests involved, not so much partisan politics. That's why those relationships are so important. Educating legislators & developing trust breaks down those political barriers and it shows that folks are not just showing up to express outrage, however deserved.

 

[Ben Lamb]

So is this like when point schemes started 20 30 years ago and I need to get in on the ground floor and go on a guided hunt this year or be left in the dust always one point or 2x behind? Can I still sign up and get a tag this year?

You have to be sponsored by an outfitter so once it is signed, you can contact an outfitter and get your welfare tag.

 

[Sytes]

If you look at that senate vote, Brad Molnar, who was enemy #1 at one point over the crossbow bill, was on the right side of this. Jeff Welborn, who is usually on our side was against us. That's a big thing to recognize, because these outcomes aren't pre-determined just by party. Some Dems were voting for the crossbow bill as well, are they enemies now?

Yes, elections have consequences, but honestly, this session was about average for wildlife with a slight tick upwards due to a change in the Governor's office. The budget was good and there's an extra $5 million or so for access & conservation.

These allocation fights will continue because there are special interests involved, not so much partisan politics. That's why those relationships are so important. Educating legislators & developing trust breaks down those political barriers and it shows that folks are not just showing up to express outrage, however deserved.

Nice in theory and examples you shared though - take the face value of ardent Hunt Talk members who state the opposite of your statement and... well, is what it is. Blame placed on Montana voters who voted... what party? I can quote though it's evident.

 

[rogerthat]

I think I’m too dumb to understand everything that was crammed into this pos. I hate this kind of shotgun legislating type bill. KISS

 

[Ben Lamb]

Nice in theory and examples you shared though - take the face value of ardent Hunt Talk members who state the opposite of your statement and... well, is what it is. Blame placed on Montana voters who voted... what party? I can quote though it's evident.

All I can say is lead by example my friend.

 

[BlazerBeam]

This year it allows unlimited number of NR hunter committed to an outfitter to buy a big game combo license (estimated 3000 by those who know the stats)

So for this fall an unlimited number of NR's can buy a big game combo as long as they use an outfitter? But for fall 2022, it will go back to a draw system (not an unlimited # of NR's) with 10% allocated to NR's? Correct? And those who use an outfitter are allowed to buy two preference points?

 

[BuzzH]

I'm curious about the 2 preference points, was talking to JM77 this morning and we wonder if there is anything in the Montana Constitution that this 2 preference points per NR outfitted hunter is even constitutional?

Seems that legislation to favor one person over another may be a violation...might be worth a thunk and lawsuit if so.

 

[MThuntr]

So for this fall an unlimited number of NR's can buy a big game combo as long as they use an outfitter? But for fall 2022, it will go back to a draw system (not an unlimited # of NR's) with 10% allocated to NR's? Correct? And those who use an outfitter are allowed to buy two preference points?

I believe the NR outfitter clients must have had their hunt booked by April 1 (not say some backdating won't happen though) and purchase the license by Aug 30

I think for 2022 everything goes back to normal with the exception that outfitted clients are allowed to purchase 2 preference points...amendment kept the rule no applicant can have more than 3 points.

It won't take long for a lot of NR clients to hit max points and then you can guarantee they'll be back with their hands extended pleading for more hypocritical socialism handouts