My Two-year HOWA Experiment

[geetar]

Looking forward to seeing the final product.

I’m feel like you’ve seen this by now but if not here’s a video on it.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I’m feel like you’ve seen this by now but if not here’s a video on it.

Yes, I have. Definitely peaked my interest even more. Like I said in early posts I have some friends who are big outdoors folks that are just getting into hunting, I think this rifle would be perfect for them. Walkin to sportsmans buy a rifle and a couple boxes of bullets, good to go.

I'm curious as well, I need a lighter rifle for alpine hunts I like my current one but's just under 10lbs... have considered Tikka, Kimber, etc but it's just a lot of extra effort to get everything setup, and I would rather spend my time planning a cool trip.

 

[geetar]

Yes, I have. Definitely peaked my interest even more. Like I said in early posts I have some friends who are big outdoors folks that are just getting into hunting, I think this rifle would be perfect for them. Walkin to sportsmans buy a rifle and a couple boxes of bullets, good to go.

Quote:
I'm curious as well, I need a lighter rifle for alpine hunts I like my current one but's just under 10lbs... have considered Tikka, Kimber, etc but it's just a lot of extra effort to get everything setup, and I would rather spend my time planning a cool trip.

I love what Randy is doing with this. Do you happen to know what it retails for? I haven’t heard and I tried on Sportsman’s website but it’s not available yet or it wasn’t yesterday when I tried. Anything sold as a package deal of this quality is a good value.

 

[WinkB]

I saw the promotional video yesterday and I like the combination that was presented. I have a Howa and was disappointed by the factory finish after just a few outing and I wound up cerakoting the rifle and I have been much happier with it. I should have gone that route in the first place as you have put together in the packaged offerings.

I am wondering as part of the discussions with Howa, and H and S stocks would your team ever consider in the future a youth model in in similar configurations?

The challenge I see is oftentimes the stock LOP is to great for smaller stature individuals or youth. Something with a 12-13" LOP really aid creating a more solid shooting platform. I can see where the target audience may be too small to provide this a option as well. I just had to ask
Thanks,

 

[Exhausted]

I love what Randy is doing with this. Do you happen to know what it retails for? I haven’t heard and I tried on Sportsman’s website but it’s not available yet or it wasn’t yesterday when I tried. Anything sold as a package deal of this quality is a good value.

They aren't available yet online, but the price is listed at $1,600. I genuinely hope he's successful as well. And I imagine there are enough fans of Big Fin that they will sell well.

 

[tzone]

Not really, that’s about what you would spend on a Bergera with that scope if paying retail.

Hmmm. Probably not. I can get a Win, Ruger, Tika Remington, Weatherby, Bergara, for $700 and a Leupold VX 2, 3-9 for $300 of a VX3 for $400 and be well under $1600.

I like what they were trying to do tho. It's just more than I would spend on a set up like that.

 

[Bluejeep]

My daughter is starting to show interest in hunting as well as my son-in-law. For $1600, I could get both of them setup pretty well and still have money left over for their tags.

Sorry, but I just don't see $1600 as an entry point rifle/scope combo for a new hunter.

 

[Addicting]

Hmmm. Probably not. I can get a Win, Ruger, Tika Remington, Weatherby, Bergara, for $700 and a Leupold VX 2, 3-9 for $300 of a VX3 for $400 and be well under $1600.

I like what they were trying to do tho. It's just more than I would spend on a set up like that.

Hmm, probably yes. I said retail, which is what Sportman’s warehouse is charging.

Bergera Ridge $865
Leupold VX3i $649.99

For a total of 1514.99 and we haven’t even put rings on it yet.

I never said what you could buy it for piece meal, but that is not what they are selling. They are selling convenience with quality parts. 1600 is spot on for retail.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I never said what you could buy it for piece meal, but that is not what they are selling. They are selling convenience with quality parts. 1600 is spot on for retail.

Agreed. You can also buy the parts and build a computer for much cheaper than retail... how many people choose to do that. Assuming you have to either pay a gun smith to put the parts together, or buy the tools to do it yourself I think this setup is probably acutally cheaper than doing it piece meal. You only get savings if you have the tools and skills to do that work buy yourself.

 

[tzone]

Hmm, probably yes. I said retail, which is what Sportman’s warehouse is charging.

Bergera Ridge $865
Leupold VX3i $649.99

For a total of 1514.99 and we haven’t even put rings on it yet.

I never said what you could buy it for piece meal, but that is not what they are selling. They are selling convenience with quality parts. 1600 is spot on for retail.

Well you're paying too much for your scopes, for starters.

 

[Addicting]

Well you're paying too much for your scopes, for starters.

And you missed the point.

 

[GlockZ]

I noticed some aren't happy with the "short" barrels offered for these prototype rifles. Short barrels tend to be more accurate because there's less barrel harmonics coming into play and short barrels are stiffer. Most rifles today have standard 22" barrels, and because of new technology in bullets, powder, and metallurgy, a 20" or 22" and or 24" (for the magnums) barrel is more than sufficient in both velocity and accuracy. As for the caliber choices, it's sad that the 30/06, and 270 won't be in the mix, but it's understandable, Howa is going for price point and caliber popularity. I am looking forward to seeing the finished product Big Fin!

 

[iiiNelson]

I think the price is fair but probably a bit steep for a new hunter unsure about diving in head first. What I do believe this is a realistic option for is the experienced hunter looking to add a second rifle or a backup rifle. Also I still am not sure about cartridge choices for a new hunter (specifically the 300WM) but I understand the 6.5 Creedmoor and 308 additions. I’d probably never consider this rifle because of cartridge choices but it looks like a great option for many.

 

[Ben Sellers]

This looks like a good solid choice for someone who doesn’t want to figure out which rings to get or how to properly mount a scope. If you don’t know how, you may have to pay to have it done. I’m glad to see a package with a quality scope. Usually they are throw away items.

I hope this package is successful and long lived. As part of this, I hope the retailer realizes that charging the high end of retail. This looks like the price that they usually put a line through then put “our price $1199.99” below it.

 

[sbhooper]

This is an interesting thread. I would not be in the market for this combo, but I think the idea is sound. I am not a fan of short barrels, but that is my preference. I especially think that 26-inch barrels make more sense on the magnums, as people that think that they need magnums, tend to do it for the max performance. I had 24-inch 7 mags for years, but I have found that the performance is better and the rifle is not any harder to pack with a 26-inch barrel. For everything else, I prefer the 24-inch barrels, but 22 is not bad either.

The calibers are pretty well thought out, for the most part. The .308 and Creed are both proven, accurate killers in the field and on range targets. I have zero use for that Leupold scope. I have owned one and after the third trip to the factory, I sold it. That is not conducive to trusting something.

Everybody has their own opinion on what a gun should be. I have three rifles with factory barrels that all hammers (.308 RA, recently acquired .270 Mod 70 and 7 mag SPS). The rest all wear custom barrels and they are my favorite firearms. Good luck with this combo, at whatever the price settles on.

 

[VikingsGuy]

When they launched I wasn’t surprised at the price point given the math of the component choices (very good choices in my view). Earlier in the thread somebody pointed out this is a great 2nd rifle for a relatively new hunter. The true newby is probably looking for something under $750 - but once hooked and wanting an upgrade, but not yet deep enough to worry about handloading or 2” of barrel, this is spot on. The one thing that surprised me is that on the web page they show they come with muzzle brakes - I guess the marketing folks carried the day over BigFin’s distaste for brakes - such is the reality of running a business.

 

[SDhunter59]

When they launched I wasn’t surprised at the price point given the math of the component choices (very good choices in my view). Earlier in the thread somebody pointed out this is a great 2nd rifle for a relatively new hunter. The true newby is probably looking for something under $750 - but once hooked and wanting an upgrade, but not yet deep enough to worry about handloading or 2” of barrel, this is spot on. The one thing that surprised me is that on the web page they show they come with muzzle brakes - I guess the marketing folks carried the day over BigFin’s distaste for brakes - such is the reality of running a business.

What is the reason for BigFin’s distaste for brakes?

 

[geetar]

Over the last two years we have been shooting a wide variety of Howa rifles, barrel lengths and tapers, cartridges, stocks, etc. The idea is to come up with a few (five or less) rifle options that are considered a great value for people looking for one rifle to cover the majority of their hunting. For me, value is the intersection of performance and price.

My role was that of a hunter for over 40 years, with the last dozen years being 100+ days per season. I gave my ideas, maybe more like wishes, to Howa. They have been making/selling rifles for a long-time and they know that gig. They built what I asked and sent them for me to use and test. They have relationships with manufacturers that allow for many options to consider.

I had to put aside some of my personal biases, yet demand certain features based on my personal experiences of hunting many species in many different conditions. A bit more challenging than expected when value is paramount to the end product.

With my belief that value is the intersection of price and performance, here is how I approached both those intersection variables.

Price - My goal when we started were to come up with 3-5 chamberings, in the best performing combinations we/I have found, so that the average hunter can buy one of these rifle/scope combos with complete confidence. That is all done within the sideboards of an end pricing model that will appeal to the average hunter. Popular chamberings and projected sales must be considered when determining what level of "scale" will be realized that can further bring down cost, thereby improving value.

Performance - There are some aspects that I think are critical to an accurate, durable, rifle, no matter the price point. Accuracy is paramount, and the Howa barreled action on which this is built comes with a great reputation for accuracy. Triggers are so much a part of accuracy that an excellent trigger is a must; something Howa is known for. A stock that is suited for consistent performance in all conditions. Cartridge chamberings that can perform well with factory ammunition and is readily available. Protection from weather by fully Cerakote-ing the barrel/action/bolt. Scopes and stocks that I have tried and know to work.

This was a seemingly easy project when we first took it on. When you start down the path with value as the end goal, you quickly realize where costs pile up and how to assess the cost-benefit of each feature you might consider. Decisions must be made that keep the "value equation" a highest priority.

A few things I know we have finalized:

Four chamberings have been solidified, with a fifth being considered. The idea being to give coverage for the person more likely to be hunting elk, or elk a bit more than deer, or the person who hunts elk and deer about the same, and the person who might hunt only deer or antelope. Those chamberings will be:

1. .300 Win Mag - 24" barrel (all barrels being a #2 contour)
2. 7mm Rem Mag - 24" barrel
3. .308 Win - 22" barrel
4. 6.5 Creedmoor - 22" barrel
5. 7mm-08 is being considered, but every ammo manufacturer says it is losing popularity. Most know of my affection for that cartridge, but if having to make my short-action choice between a .308 and a 7mm-08 where one can be produced at a scale with significantly better value, it's a no brainer. I am lobbying that our audience would buy enough 7mm-08s that sales would be better than projecting from ammo sales.

The scope combination for this set up will be a Leupold VX3i with CDS. Again, to create the greatest value (price/performance), it will be a 3.5-10x40mm. Will come with Leupold rings and bases. The glass of the VX3i is excellent, as is the price for what you get with that scope. I see the CDS as a huge value item for the small marginal cost.

Stock will be an H-S Precision, the same as what Howa has been using in their recent Howa-HS packages. There is just not a stock option out there that can compete with the quality/price mix of the H-S. It will have its own custom color scheme that adds no cost, as colors have never improved performance.

Right now it seems as though one retailer is excited to have the exclusive on the package. Should know more about that in the next week. Hope to have it shipping to the retailer sometime in August.

No pictures yet, as none of the prototypes we were testing look like this final package.

I hope when the average hunter is making their decision about their next hunting rifle purchase, this package will be very attractive. I do know that they will not find a package that performs as well as this package, at the price this package will be sold for (and pricing is very close to being finalized). I think most hunters end up in a quandary or analysis paralysis when it comes to buying their first few rifles. These packages are tried and tested, such that they can buy any of these chamberings and not look back.

A few things that were crossed off at the beginning, as a function of anticipated demand, end cost to buyer, and production availability.

I was thinking of the person who is buying their first rifle, or filling out a breadth of options to cover a few more possibilities. As a result of my approach, the hunter/shooter looking for a specialty cartridge to fill in the small gaps between their current rifles, or the person willing to spend a few thousand extra for any/every small upgrade, is probably not the intended buyer.

I never expect a huge array of chamberings. The lower selling models add cost to the more popular models, thereby pressuring my "value goal."

The super lightweight option that replaces the Alpine Mountain Rifle is not going to be available this year, but we have had meetings about such and I have held a prototype. Unfortunately, the cost will be significantly higher than what this first rifle project allowed for.

And to answer in advance, Howa does not offer left-handed models. Sorry about that.

When is the 7mm Rem. mag set to come out? That is the chambering I’m most interested in. Extremely nice rifle from what the promo video shows.

 

[hossblur]

Anyone checked Randy? He put his namecon a Creed, is he sporting a man bun under that Leupold hat?

 

[rjthehunter]

My biggest question is why wouldn't they make a left handed action? 30% of the population is left eye dominant... I'm right handed but left eye dominant. They're cutting off a pretty large percentage of possible customers due to not making a left handed action. I'm not going to spend any amount of money on a rifle if it's not left handed. I've been given a couple right handed rifles, and I simply don't use them. Sure a guy could shoot a right handed rifle and make it work but they weren't designed that way. They're designed to shoot with one hand and rack the bolt with the same hand, thus keeping your finger off the trigger while racking the bolt. I've shot a lot and in semi auto rifles it isn't such a big deal but for a bolt action rifle, I just don't understand. They're giving up 30% of possible sales.