MT points squared.

[Sytes]

Read an article in the Montana Outdoors magazine (March-April 2012) detailing the new method used for points. Basically, squaring the qty of points a person has collected.
I believe it is a reasonable step to assist those with a larger pool of points to increase the draw potential.

Simple enough as an example: 10 points now = 100. Whereas 5 points now = 25.

Prior the person with 10 points had 2x's the opportunity to draw over a person with 5pts whereas now, that has increased to 4x's...

Personally, I believe anyone that has 15 points should be able to write their ticket for the area they wish to draw in and be placed in a select pool with those of 15 points as well within the certain drawing district and draw from those alone... In 1-2 tag areas, define it as an every other year 15p+ draw... and if someone actually reaches 30 points without a draw, they should be able to write their ticket all together... Heck 30 years not drawinig, I tip my hat to that person to succeed in their choice hunt - though I'll be the last to seek lottery crystal ball #'s from... This is off the cuff type thinking and I am not declaring this to be the master fix for all drawing points... just a base thought.

Anyhow, curious the thoughts of this new method.

 

[buglum]

Only problem I see deals with the issue that these points started 10ish years ago and so on the 15th year there will be thousands who have max points and then the next year there will be thousands more again. I don't know if it's possible to stay ahead of the curve as I know many, many people have max points in every species. The biggest problem I see is a gradual inclination towards a preference point system, which I am not a fan of.

 

[mtlion]

Personally, I believe anyone that has 15 points should be able to write their ticket for the area they wish to draw in and be placed in a select pool with those of 15 points as well within the certain drawing district and draw from those alone... In 1-2 tag areas, define it as an every other year 15p+ draw... and if someone actually reaches 30 points without a draw, they should be able to write their ticket all together...

Can't say I agree. Right now even someone who is putting in for the first time has a chance albeit a slim one. Why would a 12 year old kid start putting in if he'll never get a chance to hunt? Look at Wyoming and the point creep going on there...The system there is losing them a lot of my money that I'm putting in drawings elsewhere.

 

[Summitthunting]

Colorado is screwing hunters that have a lot of points with the hybrid draw, now 5 points can get you a tag that someone with 15-19 Points should be drawing. They are doing it solely for the money, which I kinda understand, but I still feel bad for they guys that are getting screwed.

 

[mtlion]

I like MT's current system even though I never draw anything. Everyone has a chance, those with more points have a better chance.

 

[ARO]

I like the new proposal, I feel the squaring of points is the best system around.

 

[Bambistew]

Colorado is screwing hunters that have a lot of points with the hybrid draw, now 5 points can get you a tag that someone with 15-19 Points should be drawing. They are doing it solely for the money, which I kinda understand, but I still feel bad for they guys that are getting screwed.

Did CO change their system this year?

 

[Summitthunting]

Bambistew, here's a link that goes over the hybrid draw. Went into effect in 2010.

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Hunting/BigGAme/SeasonStructure/Pages/SeasonStructure.aspx

 

[1_pointer]

I like the new proposal, I feel the squaring of points is the best system around.

I disagree. I think a purely random draw is the best bet and no points, bonus or preference. IMO, it's the fairest.

That said, I'm buying points in a few states this year...

 

[sagebrush]

Although I have yet to apply in MT, I like the system. Its similar, if not the same, to what is done in NV. I like knowing I have a chance to draw with zero points every year and my chances improve exponentially each time I don't draw. The system gives those that have not drawn for several years a much greater chance at a tag than those that are just starting out or recently drew, yet gives everyone a chance to hunt in any given year. I don't like preference point systems because more and more tags start looking like once in a lifetime tags. Especially if you're like me in my 60's.

 

[Oak]

Colorado is screwing hunters that have a lot of points with the hybrid draw, now 5 points can get you a tag that someone with 15-19 Points should be drawing. They are doing it solely for the money, which I kinda understand, but I still feel bad for they guys that are getting screwed.

I don't necessarily agree with the new hybrid system. I agree that it is unfair to the resident hunter that has been applying for 15+ years. But I don't understand your comment that they are doing it for the money? How will it make them more money?

 

[Summitthunting]

It keeps people applying for tags that otherwise will never draw in those coveted units. Statistically speaking some of those units are tied up for a very long time. The hybrid draw gives the hunter with 5/+ points a chance at 20% of the tags for that GMU.

The below quotes are taken from this link: http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteCol...ame/HybridDraw/TheHybrid DrawOverview2010.pdf

"Under the current preference point system, some licenses require so many points that 95% of hunters, including those that already have up to 10 points and youth hunters, will likely never be able to draw one of these licenses in their lifetime. Hunters that began applying for preference points many years ago essentially “locked up” the highest demand hunts."

This keeps Non-resident dollars flowing into the draw. If Non-residents had zero chance of drawing "premium" tags, how many would pull out of the Colorado draw? This is all speculation on my part, no hard facts.

"Although the hybrid draw does take some licenses out of the preference point drawing, the number of licenses is very small and draw simulations indicate minimal effect on preference point inflation."

Sound great until that one license that you should have drawn with 18 points goes to a guy with 5 points

Whats your take on it Oak?

 

[Oak]

I think that if non-residents realized that they have zero percent chance of drawing a hybrid tag, it wouldn't make much difference. So if is simply a case of non-residents staying in the draw longer, it is their own fault for not researching the system better. I do think that CPW is being a little underhanded by not telling non-residents such, but they do explicitly explain the draw process.

I think that it doesn't change much for residents. The only difference is that guys are putting a unit down as their first choice instead of the PP code. The only people the hybrid system helps is the resident with six or more points. The only people it hurts is the residents with enough points to draw a premium tag in the next 3-5 years. Non-residents have no skin in the game.

 

[Summitthunting]

So do the non-resident caps effectively take non-residents out of the draw for hybrid licenses? I'll be putting a hunt code down next year for elk instead of a PP code. If you can't beat em join em!

 

[Oak]

Yes, the 20% cap will always be filled in the regular draw, because the max points pool is weighted towards non-residents.

 

[Dinkshooter]

I had fun joining a friend on a hybrid hunt this year, I hope to pull this year as well with my big 8 elk points.

I'd probably be bitter about the hybrid if I had not already drawn my big Colorado elk hunt already

 

[DreaminofMT6X6s]

The squaring of points I don't think is going to solve anything. You're giving people with higher points a greater chance over someone with less points...yes that's the idea I understand, but just as Sytes stated they now have even greater leverage over that other person. Also, the number of people (let's stick with residents for now) remains the same no matter what for every region. So what this means (as I see it) is that unless you have a good number of points you more than likely won't draw and even IF you have a lot of points you are competing with others with just as many points for the same 1 or 2 tags for that region. You've taken the guy with less points out of the equation reducing the insentive for them to put in at all. So at this point why would guys continue to put in for draws when they don't stand a chance of drawing for years. The old system gave a guy hope and he knew that no matter what he had a chance (a small one, but a chance). Now he still has a chance, but it might as well be the same odds as winning Powerball.

Let me know if I need to explain this more. Unless this system is temporary, I think FWP will be loosing more people then they gain. Over the next several years, people will begin to understand just how this system works.

 

[brownbear932008]

I had fun joining a friend on a hybrid hunt this year, I hope to pull this year as well with my big 8 elk points.

I'd probably be bitter about the hybrid if I had not already drawn my big Colorado elk hunt already

I think this post is the real way most hunters are looking at these draws. I am also pretty much max points in MT. on several draws. If I were just starting my points over after a draw it would suck. But look at it this way I would have finally drew the tag I wanted and got to hunt that unit I wanted. :hump:I think the guys with lots of points love it and the guys with few points hate this type of draw. I personally have hated the MT. draw/bonus point system. The unit I put in for on my elk tag non res. usually draw 4-6 of the 60 available tags in that unit. Well I have looked over about 8 years of draw stats and guess what 90% of those roughly 6 tags are drawn by non res. with zero or one point. How is this fair when I have put in for 7 years staight. I honestly believe you should be rewarded for putting in every year and being consistent. Right now that isn't happening in this unit. I think the new MT. system will stop this and it is much more fair. It's a very complicated matter if you start going over the numbers closely and breaking the numbers down. I have also found that when the number of people putting in for that tag increases the old MT. system does start working for residents but for non resisdents it is just the reverse in the same unit. Or at least in the unit I apply for this is what is happening the last several years. I think it is because the point pool for zero and one point is so large statistically it is so many people in these two pools they draw the tags before the one guy in the pool with 8 points. He has 8 chances for those 6 tags but say the 0 point pool has 78 different guys in there they get the tag usually. Like I say it's complicated too much for my dumb A***. LOL

 

[Flatrock]

I think everyone's opinion is biased depending on how many points they have. I'm honestly not sure what the best system is. It kind of nice though that a lot of the states have different types of lotteries and while I am fairly new to the bonus/preference point donation system, I can apply in Idaho or New Mexico and have the same odds as someone who has been putting in for 30 years. But states like Montana or Wyoming, the tags are given to people who have been putting in forever and I think that that is fair too.

In the end, I think everyone just likes to bitch.