The Hedgehog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2000
- Messages
- 11,597
No shit! Those elk are eating that poor bastard outta house and home.
MT Governor inspecting the shoulder season landscape
- Thread starter Big Fin
- Start date
ShootsManyBullets
Well-known member
"I just can't quit you Bill!"
-Steve
-Steve
Randy has it well pegged! MSA stand: What is the Rest of the Story?
The press touting the shoulder seasons is disturbing, at best. FWP and even the Governor have promoted these seasons as successful. Our question is “by what metric?” If it is just killing the public trust elk, it begs the question: “if the same level of access were available during the general seasons, would it not have achieved the same results or better?” Is it not disingenuous to call this success without any data on what is happening regarding the original objectives and performance measures? Most of us were led to believe it was a package deal. Obviously, we were misled.
Certainly we realize that there are instances of elk not being there during the general season, those folks need some help. It seems a huge part of the driving force is from private lands outfitted during the general with little or no public hunting access. In essence, this is another bailout for the private land outfitters and harborers; another expected entitlement.
In jumping from five pilot projects to 44 hunt districts, has FWP done the homework with the landowners as required? Is there buy-in from landowners who know the original goals and objectives. Have we changed the rules on the metrics used to evaluate shoulder seasons? What happened to the measurable objectives decided upon earlier? Is this top down management? Just what is the other side of the story, i.e., what is the cause of these over objective numbers? It is difficult to fathom how some hunt districts can possibly be 200-300 percent over objective and growing at 15 percent per year with elk hunting interest being what it is in Montana. This dynamic screams of harboring, plain and simple. If there is something Montanans understand its harboring and outfitting.
Article 9 section of the Montana constitution states, " the opportunity to harvest wild fish and game animals is a heritage that shall forever be preserved to the individual citizens of the state and does not create a right to trespass on private property or diminution of other private rights." We believe the Montana constitution, in this section establishes that there is a balance to be established between the public trust and private property.
Would local businesses not flourish during the regular season if access weren’t an issue?
We think it is only fair to let the public know if rules are changed.
Our Advice: Slow down, stop the rhetoric, stay the course, stick to the original rules, collect the data and present it honestly and factually. Last but not least, why are some wanting to treat our public elk as a private commodity during hunting season and pregnant varmints after the season? We find this very distasteful?
MSA
The press touting the shoulder seasons is disturbing, at best. FWP and even the Governor have promoted these seasons as successful. Our question is “by what metric?” If it is just killing the public trust elk, it begs the question: “if the same level of access were available during the general seasons, would it not have achieved the same results or better?” Is it not disingenuous to call this success without any data on what is happening regarding the original objectives and performance measures? Most of us were led to believe it was a package deal. Obviously, we were misled.
Certainly we realize that there are instances of elk not being there during the general season, those folks need some help. It seems a huge part of the driving force is from private lands outfitted during the general with little or no public hunting access. In essence, this is another bailout for the private land outfitters and harborers; another expected entitlement.
In jumping from five pilot projects to 44 hunt districts, has FWP done the homework with the landowners as required? Is there buy-in from landowners who know the original goals and objectives. Have we changed the rules on the metrics used to evaluate shoulder seasons? What happened to the measurable objectives decided upon earlier? Is this top down management? Just what is the other side of the story, i.e., what is the cause of these over objective numbers? It is difficult to fathom how some hunt districts can possibly be 200-300 percent over objective and growing at 15 percent per year with elk hunting interest being what it is in Montana. This dynamic screams of harboring, plain and simple. If there is something Montanans understand its harboring and outfitting.
Article 9 section of the Montana constitution states, " the opportunity to harvest wild fish and game animals is a heritage that shall forever be preserved to the individual citizens of the state and does not create a right to trespass on private property or diminution of other private rights." We believe the Montana constitution, in this section establishes that there is a balance to be established between the public trust and private property.
Would local businesses not flourish during the regular season if access weren’t an issue?
We think it is only fair to let the public know if rules are changed.
Our Advice: Slow down, stop the rhetoric, stay the course, stick to the original rules, collect the data and present it honestly and factually. Last but not least, why are some wanting to treat our public elk as a private commodity during hunting season and pregnant varmints after the season? We find this very distasteful?
MSA
What needs to be known is what is behind the elk shoulder seasons. A group of ranchers from central Montana have threatened to sue Montana FWP for not meeting elk population objectives. They have a strong case beacuse of Debbie Barrett's HB 42 mandating FWP to get elk, deer and antelope populations down to, or below population objectives. This language is also in her Large Predator Control Bill bill that was passed last legislative session. What is needed is a plan to over turn these bills and stop legislation of wildlife management in Montana. All the discussion on elk shoulder seasons will be for NOT if this is not accomplished.
Ray Gross
Dillon, Mt
Ray Gross
Dillon, Mt
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
rgross, although I agree it would be good to overturn Sen Barrett's politically derived legislative mandates to FWP, I don't think it's likely to happen. As long as there is the political influence presently seen in the legislature, with fish & game legislative committees led by those who seemingly hate wildlife and hunting. the political wildlife management will continue, and not in the best interests of wildlife and hunting.
However, the Elk Management Plan is not legislated as it is an FWP wildlife management plan (as poor as we consider it) developed by that agency and approved by Fish & Game Commission oversight. I contend that it is past due for an update and for revision of elk numbers' objectives for each and every Elk Management Unit, based on more scientific and factual rationale, with the political "elk tolerance" still as a factor, but to a significantly lesser degree.
I continue to assert that with proper wildlife management planning, effective elk distribution methods, and adequate mitigation of the adverse impacts of wildlife on landowners, Montana can sustain more elk ... not fewer.
However, the Elk Management Plan is not legislated as it is an FWP wildlife management plan (as poor as we consider it) developed by that agency and approved by Fish & Game Commission oversight. I contend that it is past due for an update and for revision of elk numbers' objectives for each and every Elk Management Unit, based on more scientific and factual rationale, with the political "elk tolerance" still as a factor, but to a significantly lesser degree.
I continue to assert that with proper wildlife management planning, effective elk distribution methods, and adequate mitigation of the adverse impacts of wildlife on landowners, Montana can sustain more elk ... not fewer.
BuzzH
Well-known member
I really wish I had the energy to care about this.
My only recourse for this bullchit war on elk, as a now NR hunter of Montana, is to no longer participate in elk hunting there.
This has been a tough decision for me as I still have family there and 2 nephews that are just entering hunting age. I've held elk licenses in Montana every year since 1980.
However, for about the last decade, I've felt guilty after pulling the trigger on elk in Montana. It almost feels like I'm killing the last bison or passenger pigeon. The lack of management, the legislature, the MT "freezer fillers", and worthless MFWP leadership have left me no choice.
I cant vote the a-holes out of office that appoint washed up FWP directors that care more about their jobs and politics than doing whats best for MT's wildlife, allow the legislature to pass heinous legislation, etc.
So, I'll take my elk hunting, and associated money, to states where wildlife management is still a priority over politics, filling freezers, and destroying what was once a great resource.
I refuse to be part of the problem and support a Department that does not have my, or the States wildlife, in its best interest.
My only recourse for this bullchit war on elk, as a now NR hunter of Montana, is to no longer participate in elk hunting there.
This has been a tough decision for me as I still have family there and 2 nephews that are just entering hunting age. I've held elk licenses in Montana every year since 1980.
However, for about the last decade, I've felt guilty after pulling the trigger on elk in Montana. It almost feels like I'm killing the last bison or passenger pigeon. The lack of management, the legislature, the MT "freezer fillers", and worthless MFWP leadership have left me no choice.
I cant vote the a-holes out of office that appoint washed up FWP directors that care more about their jobs and politics than doing whats best for MT's wildlife, allow the legislature to pass heinous legislation, etc.
So, I'll take my elk hunting, and associated money, to states where wildlife management is still a priority over politics, filling freezers, and destroying what was once a great resource.
I refuse to be part of the problem and support a Department that does not have my, or the States wildlife, in its best interest.
Why elk shoulder seasons
The reason we have elk shoulder seasons in Montana is because some ranchers in central Montana threatened to sue FWP for not meeting elk population objectives. They have a good case because of Debbie Barrett's HB 42 that mandates FWP to get elk, deer and antelope populations to, or below objectives. She also has this same language in her Large Pretador Control bill that passed in the last legislative session. We need to work on getting these laws overturned or all the talk about elk shoulder seasons is for NOT. We need to stop legislating wildlife management in Montana.
Ray Gross
Dillon, Mt
The reason we have elk shoulder seasons in Montana is because some ranchers in central Montana threatened to sue FWP for not meeting elk population objectives. They have a good case because of Debbie Barrett's HB 42 that mandates FWP to get elk, deer and antelope populations to, or below objectives. She also has this same language in her Large Pretador Control bill that passed in the last legislative session. We need to work on getting these laws overturned or all the talk about elk shoulder seasons is for NOT. We need to stop legislating wildlife management in Montana.
Ray Gross
Dillon, Mt
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
You're preaching to the choir ... it's not "we" doing the legislating.
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Tex_MT
New member
What is required to get a Citizens Initiative (CI) put together for this? If that is a possible option for getting these issues more back to where they should be why wouldn't we (the resident public land elk hunting community) do that?
http://www.galtranch.com/recreation/about/
"All hunts are paid hunts and hunters typically reserve their spot 1 year in advance. Hunting is not open to the public.”
http://www.hammeremoutfitters.com/
"All hunts are paid hunts and hunters typically reserve their spot 1 year in advance. Hunting is not open to the public.”
http://www.hammeremoutfitters.com/
airlocksniffer
Member
Obviously Bill Galt makes more money off of paid hunts to make up for the loss of any crops to elk. Once again, not FWP's or my problem if harbored elk have at his alfalfa.
