Joses Friends hindering the military

[1_pointer]

Population growth is slowing or negative in much of the developed world. Thus, one could extrapolate that when the rest of the world catches up the trend would follow there.

There's not alot I can do about population growth on a global level, but I can control it in my house. Unless my wife and I have a multiple birth, we'll have two kids then I'm off to the Dr. for a snip. By then I'll have made my genetic contribution to the next generation, whether that is successful or not is to be determined. And just think if more people started doing that?!? The same geometic curve could be applied on a different parameter, resulting in a change in growth (amount or rate). All's not lost yet...

Population growth is something I'm pretty passionate about, because I've seen the effect that two people can have. Case in point, my father in law is the oldest of 15! Now he has 70+ neices/nephews or great-neices/nephews!

 

[MarvB]

Well said pointer, I heartily agree that people need to know their limits when raising their own children…read as “not depending upon the system to do it for them!”…and that we all (the population at large) needs to owe up in the area of responsibility for having kids!

but Buzz- here we go with the "resource gobbler" routine again?

Like most on this board I have both agreed and disagreed with you on various topics and issues and I have always appreciated your passion on the things you feel important. What I wonder about is when you imply these sometimes broad sweeping accusations. Not everyone who has two or three kids is immediately part "of the problem". Not all multiple child families are relying on the public teat to raise them and are a drain on society. I feel (unfortunately at times) that I live in the welfare capital of the free world here in California. I see huge families in line at the store with their pack of gift tickets and yes, it does piss me off and I think the system is broke, being abused, and in need of drastic reform. That being said, What if mom/ dad or grampa/grandma Buzz felt the same way you seem to about kids? Granted you wouldn't be any the smarter for it as you wouldn't be around but with posts like….

I got into hunting because my grandparents and parents were all outdoor oriented people and I listened to countless hunting and fishing stories.
...but for me there was never a more exciting time than when I was finally 12 and had a rifle, a license, and opening day was tomorrow, thats the stuff dreams are made of...

I sometimes wonder about the disconnect? At times, you seem to have a true disdain for children in general Maybe it’s just me getting my hairy back up because I coach kids sports, teach hunters’ safety to kids, work with youth and scout groups, etc….and see potential in each and every one of them- potential that is often defeated by people around them with attitudes such as yours. Or maybe that it’s because I am a father of three and bust my own ass each day to provide them as many or more opportunities than I had as a child.

Whatever the case when I read

...guess I just havent given up and turned into a cynical, fat, grouchy 60 year old.

it sounds to me like your nearly half-way there!

 

[BuzzH]

MarvB, I dont have a disdain for kids, for selfish reasons I'd like to have a couple myself.

That being said, I think that a good portion of the people who have kids put very little, if any, thought into what they're doing. They dont anticipate how they'll pay for them, dont think 2 seconds about the impacts of having kids, etc. Plus, isnt it just grand that we have millions of kids bouncing around in single parent households...lots of thought by the parents there???

I also totally disagree with the tax system that allows deductions for having more and more kids...at some point enough is enough. If you're smart enough to have kids, you should be smart enough to pay for them...but I guess thats really the problem with a good portion of people with kids isnt it? They're just barely smart enough to know how to make them...

I dont blame the kids, just their ass-clown "parents" and our government leadership that cant seperate church and state and who encourage having kids...rather than encouraging responsibility.

Make sense?

Oh, and one last thing, every additional person on the planet is having an impact and contributing to the population explosion.

Look at it this way, you're kids can have more resources because I dont have any resource gobblers...you're welcome in advance.

 

[MarvB]

Well your first sentence spoke volumes on the topic, and I for one wouldn't find your (or any proper parent's) desire to have a couple selfish at all. We are very much in agreement on the issue of there being far too many ass-clowns posing as parents, unfortunately their kids didn't ask to be brought into this world and I've known quite a few that would go back if that at all was an option.

I also heartily agree that our system is in bad shape, both governmentally and socio-economically and that the fix won't come cheap, easy, or without those who are currently abusing it bitchin' and whining all the way. Many of the current tax laws I have issues with but I think the welfare dole galls me even more. There has to be a diminishing return to keep from adding more and more mouths and generations to public subsistence. Its time to be less politically correct and more politically direct in dealing with these epcific groups.

Buzz you are right in the context of “every additional person on the planet is having an impact and contributing to the population explosion.” but I also look (glass semi-half-full) at it as one those people contributing to the impact may also have the answer to solving the problem!

Finally,

you're kids can have more resources because I dont have any resource gobblers...you're welcome in advance

I appreciate the offer but, as my parents taught me and also what I will, hopefully, instill upon my little gobblers, I will only take that what I am rightfully entitled to and will pay fully for my share along the way!

Thanks for the reply

 

[Washington Hunter]

Buzz, Couldn't agree with you more.

 

[BuzzH]

MarvB, thanks for the reply back.

I agree with most of your last post, and I think we probably agree more on the issue than we think.

One thing though, that has always gravelled my ass (while we're being un-pc) is the republican bible thumping conservative right wingers (types like SHRUB) who rail people for having abortions, and want to "err on the side of life"...but at the same time systematically bitch and whine about 3rd generation welfare recipients.

Lets see...you dont want abortions to be legal...but you dont want welfare either????

Yeah, think about that for a couple minutes...great philosophy.

Have a bunch of kids (err on the side of life) that their "parents" cant support and we wont help you either? WTF?

Oh, and to keep unwanted pregnancies from happening we'll preach abstinance as the way to achieve that...way better than educating kids about birth control...

Holy shit, the Republican party is out in la-la land.

 

[MarvB]

Don’t know if you can pin it all down to the Republicans however.

Among Christian “denominations”, the Catholic Church is the largest in body. They also tend to have the largest family (household) sizes (ergo, consume the most resources). They are very pro-life in almost all venues but are predominately Democrats in their voting stance (one notable exception being the Reagan administration) despite the party’s general support for abortion and gay rights.

Many blue-collar Catholics vote Democrat as they view the Party as the protector of the poor and powerless. Unfortunately the same groups they wish to “protect” are also typically at the core of the welfare problem I was speaking of.

As said before, no quick, easy, or cheap fix on this one….

Interesting subset of this in an article in “Crisis” Link

 

[cjcj]

Illegals = 20 million.... they average at least 5 kids apeice = 100 million = [overpopulation]........sorry this thread is about the illegals/Marine base.

 

[AprilW]

Oh, and to keep unwanted pregnancies from happening we'll preach abstinance as the way to achieve that...way better than educating kids about birth control...

Holy shit, the Republican party is out in la-la land.

Buzz,

Abstinance IS a form of birth control. And a very effective one at that.

You may not be aware of it, but abstinence is taught in the elementary schools during the sex ed. class. It is even listed on the Planned Parenthood website.

Maybe the Republican party has now infiltrated Planned Parenthood???

 

[1_pointer]

Marv- I was raised Catholic (I'm not too good at it anymore, but go most Sundays to keep domestic peace) and whole heartedly agree with your post. IMO, until many religions (I now live in Mormon Country) change their views on family size, it won't get too much better. I can understand the need to teach/preach large family sizes back when survivability was 20% for infants, but maybe not now.

April- I think what Buzz is getting at is analagous to the 'War on Drugs'. The Just Say No campaign did have too much of an impact and neither is teaching abstinence. Not that it shouldn't be taught, but maybe focusing more on birth control would be more effective.

 

[AprilW]

I think what Buzz is getting at is analagous to the 'War on Drugs'. The Just Say No campaign did have too much of an impact and neither is teaching abstinence. Not that it shouldn't be taught, but maybe focusing more on birth control would be more effective.

1_pointer-

Teaching abstinance IS focusing on birth control.

I get the idea you do not think abstinance is birth control?

Is it a certain type of abstinance you don't think is birth control?

 

[1_pointer]

I do understand that abstinance is birth control. Can't have a baby w/o the sex (biology major ). What I'm saying is that I remember what being 16 yrs old was like. There's a few that will go the abstinance route (I didn't), more power to them. But, there's sure a hella lot more that aren't. Teaching about abstinance is not going to affect them. But, teaching them about the proper way to put on a condom or dispelling the pregnance myths and maybe the truth about birth control pill/patches/shots just might keep them safe and from not being a parent. That's the point I was trying, but failing to make.

 

[AprilW]

There's a few that will go the abstinance route (I didn't), more power to them. But, there's sure a hella lot more that aren't. Teaching about abstinance is not going to affect them. .

How do you know that?

How do you know that there are not young people who once they become "educated" about avoiding pregnancy, diseases, and learning responsibility don't choose that route? How do you know that adults would not benefit from learning about it?

What if they learn about abstinance, choose not to use that method, but walk away with knowledge that may help them later in life?

Teaching about abstinance is alot more than saying "The only way to absolutley avoid pregnancy and disease is abstinance". It involves learning about making informed decisions, dealing with responsibility, learning self worth, making commitments, and building good relationships. It involves looking at different methods of abstinance.

There are federal funds going to pay for abstinance programs. Anyone can apply for funds to run an abstinance program. The Republicans are supporting this endeavor.

No where do I see the Republican party saying other methods of birth control are not worthwile to teach about. No where have I seen the Republican party say abstinance is the only acceptable method of birth control.

 

[MattK]

There have been quite a few people wanting to teach only abstinence in school. Their thought is kids will only do what we teach them. If they only know abstinence that is what they will do. The problem is there are kids getting pregnant at 12 and 13. Although not a completely new idea but kids are learning about sex at a very young age. According to some stats I have seen the average kid loses their virginity at 16. The average kid obviously knows about intercourse at that age. They should also know how to prevent disease, pregnancy, etc. also. Teach abstinence but it's like telling a kid to never drink alcohol. At some point they will and I guarantee the parents will probably not be around (or at least I hope not in the case of having sex). That is the reason why it's necessary to teach different methods of birth control. Some may follow the abstinence route still but stats show most will not and those are the ones who need to know the other methods.

 

[1_pointer]

How does anyone know anything about anyone else?

How do you know that there are not young people who once they become "educated" about avoiding pregnancy, diseases, and learning responsibility don't choose that route?

Because not too long ago I was one. They HAVE been taught these things for quite some time, but still didn't keep a good number of them for having sex. Hormones are a very powerful thing at that age. To choose ignore that you people are going to have sex is not going to help solve the problem. Most will have sex before their married, which IMO is not bad, I just hope they are carefull and if they do concieve a kid take good care of it.

No where did I say that teaching abstinance was of no value. What I'm saying is that teaching abstinance shouldn't be the only form of birth control taught. Education is never wasted, no matter if it is on abstinance, chemistry, biology, or how to make paper airplanes.

It involves learning about making informed decisions, dealing with responsibility, learning self worth, making commitments, and building good relationships.

Though I don't have kids yet, I don't plan on letting this up to the school system or something that requires federal funding. Though I hope they re-inforce these things, I will be the one teaching my kids these things (assuming that we are able to have kids).

I do have to ask what 'different methods of abstinance' are??? That one I haven't been taught.

 

[BuzzH]

1-pointer,

You took the words right out of my mouth...I mean how much money is Shrub throwing at the many "different methods of abstinance"??? Fiscal, social, and educational responsibility at its finest...compliments of the GOP...HAHA.

And the sheeple keep being spoon-fed their mush...

 

[AprilW]

There have been quite a few people wanting to teach only abstinence in school.

Matt, do you mean abstinence-only?

That is alot different from teaching about abstinence. I would doubt that a public school would ever be able to teach abstinence-only as the only sex ed class.

 

[BuzzH]

AprilW,

Its pretty obvious you havent listened to the Republicans lately on how they want to curb unwanted teen pregnancies...ABSTINANCE is where they want the effort focused on...

Thats nice, I'm sure most 16-year olds will remember all about that abstinance program while thrashing around in the back seat of their parents car...

Can you name me a single time that abstinance worked as birth control after sexual intercourse has taken place?

I say teach kids how to wrap the rascal and then if they decide to abstain from sex...even better. But dont put your faith in, well, faith when latex works 95% of the time...

 

[JoseCuervo]

April,

I heard of a study last week in two Junior Highs where the Abstinence message was getting thru to the kids. Something like 1/3 were planning on having oral sex in the next 6 months..........

 

[AprilW]

I do have to ask what 'different methods of abstinance' are??? That one I haven't been taught.

One is not doing what would get someone pregnant.

(Is that ok to say here? Cause I don't want Del to move my post to the Adult section. He is probably siiting at work with the cursor hovering over "delete")

Another is learning fertility times and abstaining then. (Did that used to be called the rhythem method?)