Jeff Hagener, new FWP director

[TBass]

wyoming556- you, like many others, saw there were licenses available for sale and automatically assumed there was a drop in the number of nonresidents that came to MT this year. State statute authorizes 17,000 big game combos and 6,600 deer combos for sale each year, which would equate to 23,600 nonresidents coming to MT if all the combos sold in the drawing. With changes in statutes that allow splitting of the big game combo and the split off licenses not counting towards the 17k and 6.6k limits, there were more than 23,600 combos sold. That means more nonresidents hunted MT this year than if all the combos sold through the drawing. Couple that with the number of nonresidents who took advantage of the nonresident native bill from the last Legislative session and there were quite a few more nonresidents hunting deer and/or elk in MT this year than "should" be if you consider the intent of the statute limiting nonresidents to 23.6k.

That should equate to nonresidents spending MORE money in MT businesses, rather than fewer, shouldn't it? It's easy to look at unsold licenses and assume there was a drop in the number of hunters without understanding what's going on. If you're asking simple questions because you're truly interested in what's going on, call FWP licensing at (406) 444-2950 and ask how many big game, elk, and deer combos were sold. Not how many were available for sale at season's end, but how many sold. While you're on the phone, ask how many nonresidents took advantage of the nonresident native licenses. That should give you an idea if there was a drop in the number of nonresidents that came to MT to hunt deer/elk this year.

 

[Straight Arrow]

wyoming556, the points made by TBass are valid. Your criticisms are based on assumptions that revenues are down and jobs have been lost due to increased license fees and poor marketing of Montana hunting. That is not true; you are suggesting remedies to problems that don't exist. There is not a serious revenue drop due to a lack of catering to NR hunters. Overall, Montana tourism revenue is up and the state is doing much better than most in this period of economic downturn.

Again, I'm puzzled by your continuous criticism of a state in which you seem to have no vested interest ... other than erroneously analyzing so you can attempt to criticize. Now you are even criticizing the state's university system. Why are you so negative? What is your problem with Montana?

Anyhow, I think Jeff Hagener previously did a good job as director and he is a good choice by Gov-elect Bullock to remedy the real problems faced by Montana FWP.

 

[wyoming556]

wy556,

Correct, but why do they get 50% of the tags?

Why dont NR's get any opportunity at elk?

Theres plenty for Nebraska to work on, like getting their deer numbers out of the tank and doing a better job of marketing their deer hunts. I live one state away, less than 100 miles from Nebraska and I've yet to see one piece of marketing from Nebraska regarding hunting.

Strange?

I believe it is because such a large % of the elk in Nebraska live on private land. As you know Nebraska has little public land.

NR's do have a chance, 3 auction or raffle tags this year for example. Not enough elk for residents to hunt let alone non residents. The elk herd is growing so propably 10-20 years from now NR's might get a chance similar to NR's being able to buy antelope tags now.

They do have OTC archery antelope tags for non residents as well as OTC archery and muzzleloader tags for deer. Also OTC tags for NR turkey huntersn not to mention generous tags for NR youth hunting opportunities. I don't think marketing Nebraska hunting in states like WY ot MT is money well spent as those states have much better opportunities. I think Nebraska markets more to eastern states. But you are right, they could do better.

 

[Lawnboy]

Why are you so negative? .

Tis the season around here lately.

 

[wyoming556]

wyoming556, the points made by TBass are valid. Your criticisms are based on assumptions that revenues are down and jobs have been lost due to increased license fees and poor marketing of Montana hunting. That is not true; you are suggesting remedies to problems that don't exist. There is not a serious revenue drop due to a lack of catering to NR hunters. Overall, Montana tourism revenue is up and the state is doing much better than most in this period of economic downturn.

Again, I'm puzzled by your continuous criticism of a state in which you seem to have no vested interest ... other than erroneously analyzing so you can attempt to criticize. Now you are even criticizing the state's university system. Why are you so negative? What is your problem with Montana?

Anyhow, I think Jeff Hagener previously did a good job as director and he is a good choice by Gov-elect Bullock to remedy the real problems faced by Montana FWP.

I'm sure they are but I have not seen any #'s to back those claims up. You can't tell me that returned elk tags from hunters who purchase big game combo licenses doesn't cost the state money. There is no reason a state like Montana should not be able to sell the # of big game combo tags the FWP sets for NR's each year. It used to be tag that was in such high demand you had to draw it, now there are leftovers and returned tags up to the end of the season. You will never see Wyoming with leftover general elk tags for non residents. Also the native Montanan license is not a good program IMO. Even guys like Buzz have stated similar opinions about it. I wish Wyoming would do the same as I am from Casper but I don't think they would even concider such a poorly though out idea. If you move away you aren't a resident and should pay NR prices IMO.

I have hunted Montana many times in the past. We used to stay at 320 ranch every year before thanksgiving and hunt the trailhead just to the east of the ranch. The hunting in that area continied to get worse each year so now we hunt other states instead. I have family that lives there in Bozeman and Livingston as well. I've even hunted MT with other HT members, we did a bear hunt near Darby a couple of years ago.

There have been many threads on this site about how out of whack the elk #'s are in Montana due to various mismanagement by FWP. It seems it's ok for residents to question FWP but when a non resident like myself does Montanans act like things are perfect. I also thought the ram sting was completely mismanaged when it took a tag from the folks who had been applying for decades and put it in an undercover agents pocket and he proceeded to shoot a 200" ram for no necessary reason that I could understand. The fact that nothing held up in court and Lewton walked is a pretty good indication of how FWP screwed up IMO.

The university of Montana has attempted to coverup sexual abouse on a level way beyond even what Penn State has. As a resident of Montana you should be embarassed, ashamed, and upset buy this but many don't seem to even know or care what is going on like yourself. A good friend of mine had his daughter affected by this and the way it was handled by the local authorities is an absolute joke and pisses me off to no end. UM threw female students under the bus in the name of FCS football and I thnk it is unexcuseable. Were you even aware of this? If you were I doubt you would wonder why I take shots at UM and their DOJ and NCAA investigations into sexual crimes on that campus.

I am also a football fan and think a state flgship institition like UM should play in a league with similar programs like Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State, Idaho, etc... instead of beating up on commuter schools and community colleges. Their enrollment, athletic budget, and attendance gives them a huge advantage playing little league sports with these schools and I think it's time for them to play with equals but for some reason the school is afraid to do so.

In the end I don't drink the cool-aid that you do about Montana.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think it's a solid pick. Like Randy said, you don't get everything you want from Jeff but he's adept at charting a course that works for everyone.

Wyo- good post.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

The Lewton sting did not take a tag from the general public, it was issued outside of the drawing quota. Given the PR debacle with this, I don't know if any mountain of evidence would have led to a conviction. Lewton was acquitted, but he's not squeaky clean either.

 

[Little Canyon Creek]

I am also a football fan and think a state flgship institition like UM should play in a league with similar programs like Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State, Idaho, etc... instead of beating up on commuter schools and community colleges.

Since when were Northern Arizona, Cal Poly, UNC, and Eastern Washington community colleges or commuter schools? And you haven't mentioned anything about the excellent undergraduate education you can receive in Montana.

 

[wyoming556]

Since when were Northern Arizona, Cal Poly, UNC, and Eastern Washington community colleges or commuter schools? And you haven't mentioned anything about the excellent undergraduate education you can receive in Montana.

FCS conferences are full of commuter colleges, bible schools, and community colleges. For example Sam Houston State who is in the FCS championship against North Dakota St. plays in the same conference as a little tiny bible school from Oklahoma, Oral Roberts University.

UM is rated #199 by US News. MSU is #189. Hardly worth bragging about as two of the lowest academically ranked state flagship unversities in the country.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-montana-2536/rankings
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/montana-state-university-2532/rankings

 

[Straight Arrow]

wyoming556, you are completely wrong ... again. As a Montana State alum and fan of Big Sky Conference sports, I am well aware of the problems with athletic programs for both schools in Montana.
This state takes the problems seriously and appropriately has dismissed those in high level positions, as well as taken other steps. Unfortunately, this seemingly depraved athletic culture is not peculiar to Montana. For someone from Nebraska to get on this forum and dump on the Montana university system is not constructive.

Elk numbers out of whack? That depends on your perspective and on the hunting district to which you are referring. I don't have any trouble finding and putting elk in my freezer. In those areas where elk numbers are down, there are a myriad of factors that have contributed. Importantly, sportsmen have been able to support FWP in efforts to correct the problem(s). Hunting up Buffalo Horn east of the 320 is not what it used to be, but FWP is certainly not fully to blame.

Nobody likes the outcome of the "sheep sting" (except maybe Lewton, who is technically "innocent") but it's history and lessons have been learned. Sure, Hagener was likely aware of the general situation, but maybe Gov-elect Bullock as AG was also. What's the point? Again, why the blame game? It's not helpful. It's old news.

Certainly, there were more tags to sell, thus more potential money to be gained. But there are those who think too many tags are issued already, and with wildlife numbers "out of whack" perhaps it's true.
The main point to refute your erroneous assumption is that the surplus tags did not result in fiscal problems for FWP nor an economic downturn. Reputable outfitters continue to have no problem bringing in clients, especially since the draw has been 100%. Tourism is continuously up in the west. Perhaps due to the oil boom, but the east is doing well too. So your economic woes are unfounded.

As a Montana resident, landowner, voter, sportsman, father and grandfather of hunters, and someone who does not "drink the cool-aid" but who strives to stay well-informed to formulate reasonable positions on issues and to listen, learn, and engage in constructive issue-related dialogue, I can only encourage you to do so in your home state and refrain from ill-informed criticism of other states.

'Way too much info I know, but hope it provides you with a more reasonable position regarding Jeff Hagener. I am pleased that he is to be the new FWP director.

 

[wyoming556]

SA you haven't proven we wrong on anything yet. If you were aware of the problems at UM you would not question my statements about them.

My problems with UM are well documented. BTW it's not just the university, its the local PD and DA's office as well in Missoula. The DA's office that is not cooperating with the DOJ investigation. Propably becasue they have someting to hide.
http://4and20blackbirds.wordpress.c...with-arizonas-maricopa-county-sheriff-arpaio/

I'm not dumping on the Montana schools system just stating facts that I can easily backup. The truth hurts, as it should in this situation. More heads should roll and propably will when these investigations are finished. I have no idea why you think a Nebraskan or any other person from any other state should not be able to have an opinion on the UM or PSU sex scandal but I do and I'm not afraid to tell you about it. BTW other schools handle rape much differently. UM to finally suspend thier star QB when under much public pressure the DA filed charges over a year after the incident as he continued to play for UM speaks volumes about the school. Same thing happened with the University of Texas this week. Player was immediately suspended and sent home, no more playing football until this is sorted out. Thats how a real school handles football players who commit sex crimes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/13/university-of-montana-beau-donaldson-guilty_n_1879461.html
http://missoulian.com/news/local/um...cle_166bb96a-a16c-11e1-8d36-001a4bcf887a.html
http://helenair.com/news/local/crim...cle_929236d6-fca2-11e1-bd92-0019bb2963f4.html

Elk #'s out of whack? Really. You must not have been paying attention. There have been numerous threads on this site about elk objective #'s so if you want to learn more do a search. Plenty of Montanans on this site don't agree with the current elk objective#'s. Do you?

It's not a blame game. Just a skeleton in the closet of your new and former FWP director. The sting started under his watch and holding the FWP director responsible for something the FWP did is not unreasonable IMO.

I think the FWP could use more money for things like block managment or purchasing additional land don't you? Or are you like the baby on the capital one commercials? But even purchasing additional land seems to be a topic of frustration for many hunters reguarding the way FWP goes about doing so. Again that's not me it's Montanans that are critical of FWP and the way they do business.
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=253219&highlight=milk+river
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=251069&highlight=land+grab
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=253235

I can back up any of my statements with facts so save your speech.

 

[wyoming556]

The Lewton sting did not take a tag from the general public, it was issued outside of the drawing quota. Given the PR debacle with this, I don't know if any mountain of evidence would have led to a conviction. Lewton was acquitted, but he's not squeaky clean either.

Do you have proof of this? It's contrary to what I have read. Link?

 

[wyoming556]

Interesting read from the Missoulan that confirms my points precisely.

http://mtstandard.com/news/opinion/...cle_53a902dc-901a-11e1-a797-001a4bcf887a.html
Pricey licenses must go
Pricey licenses must goThe Missoulian Editorial Board Mtstandard.com
April 27, 2012 12:00 am • It’s a good thing Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks set its drawing deadline for elk/deer combination hunting licenses earlier than usual this year. The March 15 deadline gives hunters a little more time to make plans for the upcoming big-game season – and it gives FWP a little more time to find takers for the more than 900 remaining non-resident licenses.

This is actually an improvement over last year, when 1,200 out-of-state licenses were still available after the first drawing.

And to think, the waiting list for such licenses often used to top 1,000.

But that was before Montana voters approved the poorly conceived initiative that triggered this regrettable reversal. Initiative 161, which appeared on the Montana ballot in 2010, drastically raised nonresident license fees in order to make up for lost revenue caused by abolishing outfitter-sponsored nonresident big game and deer combination licenses. In fact, fees rose from $628 to $897 for a nonresident big-game combination license and from $328 to $527 for a nonresident deer combination license.

Is it any wonder fewer nonresidents are snapping up these pricey licenses?

Unfortunately, Montana now looks downright unfriendly to out-of-state hunters, many of whom may opt to take their business to other states instead. It’s not only Montana FWP and the state’s outfitters that are hurt by this; Montana’s entire tourism industry and economy are being dinged.

According to the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association, which has some 240 members, outfitters in Montana counted about $167 million in gross revenues each year, and directly or indirectly employed an estimated 2,600 seasonal and full-time workers. But that accounting, of course, was before the passage of I-161.

Incidentally, MOGA was one of principal groups behind Say No to I-161, a group that also included the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, the Mule Deer Foundation and the Montana Stockgrowers Association. These groups predicted what Montana is seeing now: fewer nonresidents risking their money on a chance to draw a license in one of Montana’s popular hunting districts.

This despite the fact that Montana FWP saw 20 percent more applications for big-game licenses and permits overall.

One notable concession made to risk-averse nonresident hunters is the chance to sell back to the state all or portions of a multi-tag license if they did not draw permits for their preferred districts. FWP reports that many nonresidents chose to do just that, with 2,158 non-residents opting to refund their elk permits and another 771 turning over their entire license.
Most of the leftover nonresident licenses left over from last year were sold later on in the season. Presumably, the same thing will occur this year. FWP offered up some 17,000 non-resident elk/deer combination licenses this year, and initially sold more than 16,000 of them.

Clearly, out-of-state interest in hunting Montana isn’t what it used to be.

If Montana hopes to restore that interest and provide the state’s outfitting industry with some much-needed certainly, those hefty prices for out-of-state hunting licenses have got to go.

—The Missoulian Editorial Board

 

[wyoming556]

And another from the Montana Standard about last years license sales. The part that stuck out to me was this.

"We've experienced a 75 percent reduction in non-resident interest in Montana," he said.





http://mtstandard.com/news/local/no...cle_2d0d0d4e-255d-11e1-879f-001871e3ce6c.html

December 13, 2011 1:45 am • By Nick Gevock of The Montana Standard(12) Comments× Related Photos« » elk


More than 800 nonresident elk tags went unsold this year, marking a large increase in the number of out-of-state hunters who skipped a chance to hunt in Montana this season.

"There are leftover licenses and that's not something that usually happens in Montana," said Tom Palmer, spokesman for the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks.

But with several changes to state law on non-resident tags, a sharp increase in their price and a down economy, the reason the tags went unsold is a matter of debate.

The state had 996 nonresident elk licenses returned this year. Of those, 127 were sold to nonresident hunters who bought them as leftovers. That left 869 available elk tags that went unsold.

This year a new state law, House Bill 607, allowed hunters who drew a combination deer and elk license to return their elk tag if they didn't draw a special permit for select, trophy hunting areas. Those hunters were able to keep the deer license and get a partial refund.

At the same time, Montana voters last year eliminated the more expensive, guaranteed nonresident licenses for hunters who use outfitters and throw those into the general lottery for all hunters. That move came as the result of Initiative 161, which also raised the price of an elk and deer tags sharply.

Palmer said 805 of the leftover elk tags that didn't sell were ones returned because of House Bill 607, meaning it accounted for the vast majority.

But Mac Minard, executive director of the Montana Outfitters and Guides Association, said in past years those tags would have sold. That's because the state keeps a waiting list that had around 1,300 people to buy leftover tags; this year that list had fewer than 200 people.

"We've experienced a 75 percent reduction in non-resident interest in Montana," he said.

Minard attributed the lower non-resident interest to several factors, including the higher price of the tags, the downed economy and misconceptions nationwide about the Montana elk herd. Minard said some people believe that elk numbers are down because of predation by wolves and it is hurting the outfitting industry.

"We clearly have more elk on the landscape today than we did when the wolves were introduced, they're just not in the same places," he said.

Chris Marchion, a member of the Anaconda Sportsmen's Association and a proponent of I-161, said the unsold tags are likely due to several factors, including the new rules. But he said as non-resident hunters learn that they can buy licenses as late as November, more will choose to come to Montana.

"It does give people options," he said. "This whole process will continue to evolve."

State officials are working to get the licenses sold in future years.

For example, next year the deadline for special permits for trophy areas is being moved up to March 15, with results posted in April, said Hank Worsech, FWP license bureau chief. That will give hunters more time to plan hunts and more time for non-residents to return their tags if needed. But it will also benefit FWP.

"We'll have five more months to sell licenses," he said.

- Reporter Nick Gevock may be reached at [email protected]

 

[BuzzH]

wyoming556,

I suggest you keep studying whats going on in Montana...you're about 40% right and 60% wrong.

Elk numbers in Montana are out of whack.

Guys with just enough information to be dangerous...usually are.

 

[Eric Albus]

wyo556 is mostly correct on his take of things. We(the outfitting community) are much better off than we were under the Outfitter Sponsored License(OSL).
The number one reason for the license underselling(again, just as I predicted) is the cost.... The quality of the hunting did not go up 40 &60% (like the deer and elk/deer combo did)...the quality went backward, between predators, winter, disease, and over hunting.

Oh yeah, Jeff Hagner is a good pick as director. I hope that his experience w/ the APR will help him to realize that we must begin to manage wildlife biologically.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I'm sorry, wy ... it's over! We just can't keep going on like this. No, don't worry ... really, it's not you ... it's me.

 

[howler]

Lost revenue for the FWP, hotels, gas stations, restaurants, sporting goods stores, meat processors, taxidermists, campgrounds, etc.. Not to mention lost tax revenues for the state as well as lost jobs in the state. If none of that is important to you then you are right, there is no problem.

When hunters choose to go to other states they also take thier money to other states. Some states like money and jobs. Some even work hard to bring as many hunters to thier state to hunt elk and it can be good for all associated entites.

The sooner we quit manageing wildlife from the cash register the better off we will be

 

[TBass]

There are 23,600 combo licenses authorized by statute to be sold to nonresidents. In 2012 there were 24,816 combos sold. Each combo equates to one nonresident hunter. So does this represent a decrease in the number of nonresidents? Did the 24,816 nonresidents that came here spend less money at local businesses than the 23,600 would have if all the combos had been claimed in the drawing? Also keep in mind that when a big game combo is split and sold as a deer combo and an elk combo that the combined revenue of those two is $1300 compared to $900 when sold as a big game combo.

Additionally there were about 1,400 nonresidents who took advantage of the nonresident native bill and bought at least one hunting license. I wonder how much money they spent while they were here.

Given the number of nonresidents that bought licenses for 2012, I'm having a hard time buying into the argument that local businesses are being hurt because there's fewer nonresidents coming here. But I guess it's easier to glom on to the licenses available for sale and assume it means less people are hunting here than to try to understand what's going on.

 

[wyoming556]

I'm sorry, wy ... it's over! We just can't keep going on like this. No, don't worry ... really, it's not you ... it's me.

I think we can both agree it's time to move on. I appreciate your point of views and can tell you they have made me research and learn more about the various topics we discussed so I thank you for that. I'm ready to watch some bowl games.