Ithaca's answer

[Ithaca 37]

Mule, Yup. It's a bad time. The right time was before you started criticizing my recommendation on the quail season.

Maybe your buddy MD4M can give you the answers.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-15-2003 22:45: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

Mule, I'm just wondering...are you planning a quail hunting trip to Idaho? What kind of dog do you have? Seems like a long way to go for those little birdies. Aren't there any quail in Colorado? Heck I bet if you ask real nice Ithaca would let you chase those quails with him.

 

[Krustyklimber]

Nice flamer guys!

I'm gonna like it here.

First let me say I read what's happening in this thread before the other one, on purpose... one stinky kettle of fish at a time.

Ithaca 37,

As a long time (30+yrs) ORV enthusiast and racer, and a hunter very concerned for quail in particular, I'd like to say that I personally take no offense by what you are saying here.

I have seen the damages you portend by ATV use, regardless of which portion of the motorized wheeled vehicles have done it (ie. four wheel drive trucks, quads, dirt bikes), and I think you've been kind to not include the non-motorized wheeled vehicles (mtnbikers, and the latest off trail ridden rage the dirtboard).
(Dirtboarders look to be hugely obvious candidates for Darwin Awards, with some notable accidents already, without snow the forest floor can be a very unfriendly place to land.)

In all of my years of riding much of it was spent on BLM and DNR lands, and much of it open rangeland.
To me it is an indisputable fact that ranching has taken a toll on much of the West. And that indigenous wildlife pay that toll on a daily basis, that's without taking into account competion from introduced species, game, ferel and accidental.

But this is not to say I am anymore anti-hunter, than Ithaca 37 is, which I believe he is not.

I haven't been here very long so maybe my opinion is good here... I have no friends, so I can be totally objective.
That's not to say my point of view is right, but at least I'm not one of "a crowd"... yet... (I'm sure some kinda label will come from this post, but if you can't take the heat stay outta the kitchen eh?).

I have seen a drastic reduction of indigenous quail populations in my lifetime, this is a big part of why I now hunt predators.
And as far as hunting season extentions, and protected and non-protected species alongside in the field, there are many examples of this kind of thing. Where hunters must positively identify game species (or sexes) that may be very difficult to tell apart, before they can shoot it. All part of the game.


If a realistic view of the state of the environment, and doing something about it, means one has a "green agenda"... so be it. That, to me, would be no insult.
Intelligent visionaries like you are going to preserve hunting!


Sometimes pieces of the truth can be found on another side of an issue, so referencing opposing groups websites, or points of view, only broadens one's view of the whole truth. As long as you're willing to look for it.

If we want continue to use the land, we gotta stop abusing it, it can only hold out so long.
Because the truth of the matter is there will always be sport hunting, and a fur industry... between the two, generating over $56 billion a year in revenues and over 200,000 jobs (in PA alone!

just kidding) nationwide.

"Keep on keepin' on" can't work forever?!?

This looks a lot to me, the new guy, like a gang attack on "the smart kid"... at least that's what I'd of thought if I'd seen this the first week at a new school... it's easy for the inferior to feel like the superior has a complex about it.
I-37, I am not afraid of you, as I am sure you are not of me... and one of us has got to be smarter than the other one. lol

And the computer, and written text in general, is so difficult to interpret the intent of the writer. Without voice inflection and body language things get easily misunderstood, battlelines become drawn, and being the most competitive of male hunter/gatherer primates, we cannot back away from the foe on the other side of that line...

It is something I have found even more prevalent in hunters than any other group of "hobbyists" I've spent time in BBs with... go figure???
Though militant climberchics can get really, really aggro!

Jeff

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-16-2003 04:57: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]</font>

 

[danr55]

Ithica, Do you have numbers of hunters afield and days hunted information to equate to your harvest numbers? That would add credibility to the trends in harvest numbers. If the numbers of hunters/days hunted stayed the same and there was that large a fluctuation in harvest numbers, I would have to look to other factors to support the the harvets variations. There may be something in your argument.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Well said KK!!!

 

[Ithaca 37]

Dan, I suppose F&G has that info but I can't find it on the web. I don't think that the number of hunters in the last ten years has fluctuated much.

KK, Thank you and welcome to SI. Watch out, it can get real rough here!

It's real hard for most people to keep an open mind and change when it's necessary. I think what you see here in SI is pretty indicative of society as a whole--- resistance to change and denial of the obvious.

 

[1_pointer]

Thanks for the post KK. That spells it out fairly well from this point of view. My problem is that these issues aren't mutually exclusive, but we often see them that way.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Ithaca,

Go back and reread michaelr's first post here. It pretty much sums up my problem with you. Every time I start to think I should let up on you a bit, you go off being a dink to someone here, insulting them, taunting, spinning their words, and so on. You reap what you sow.

As for Wolves going from endangered to threatened in the next couple of weeks, my information comes from several articles I have read, quoting Ed Bangs. Sounded like a pretty reliable source.

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-16-2003 13:04: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[Krustyklimber]

Ithaca 37,

It's been said that "only an unarmed man, fears a battle of wits"...

I have nothing to watch out for here LOL... I'm packin'heat!

...if I screw up and I don''t know something I'll admit it, and I'll move on "no big deal".

I don't, and I won't, take any of this personally... and I don't and won't mean any of it that way either...
I've been down that road, and I'm not gonna get involved in making this no fun for myself.
But I may get heated in heated debates... all in good fun.

And I've already covered my hunter/gatherer hostility theory (you can't fight 1,000,000yrs of evolution), so I'll be taking most of what most of you say with a bucket of salt!!!

As should you guys me, after all I'm one of the male primate, hunter/gatherer, X-gene, aggro freaks myself (X-gene=those who must participte at the extreme edges of insane sports).

I'm so crazy I don't even mess with me...

And thanks for the welcome guys, I hope that you guys can be as nice as y'all can be mean... some of you guys must be really good at killin' things...

Jeff

 

[Ten Bears]

ITHACA, you still, in all your ramblings, never said were ATV's are damaging quail populations. You keep saying that over grazing is wrecking the riparian zones, and then through ATV's on top of it.

I (I have never taken sole credit for any accomplishment, it has always been the work of many sportsmen) have worked for years to increase the turkey hunting in the panhandle (we can hunt three birds a year), I (we) have worked to reduce the tag fee (now it is reduced to $12.00 for late spring/fall tags), I (we) have worked to eliminate the Turkey controlled hunt that opened April 15th, and open a general hunt April 15th, and it has happened. I think that this would equal "hunter opportunity" would it not? The next step I am (we are) working toward is a fourth turkey tag.

Where are you at with your quail season?

BTW, WE just got seasons for quail and pheasant this past year. Isn't that "hunter opportunity"?

Oh, and I didn't see a single ATV restriction required in the process.

I will accept your apology in advanve

, and say I'm certain, you don't know what your talking about either.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, Just a word of advice. Don't ever mention any thing you've ever done in your posts in SI. People will think you're bragging and they'll get all bent out of shape. Many here have never done anything and people who actually do get things accomplished seem to be a very big threat to them.

I wonder if you ever read the post in the turkey section about the history of the Turkey Federation in Idaho. It was about 18 months ago.

 

[Ten Bears]

I never saw the post, I only started here a year ago. I don't belong to the turkey federation. I try to keep my limit resouirces focused with the local sportsmans association.

Seems everybody wants you to pay to volunteer.

I have never accomplished any wildlife season or habitat changes alone, and I don't expect the credit for what was done as a group, even if I led the group.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Well, Ten, sometimes people come up with ideas, organize groups to support the ideas, get the ball rolling etc. It's actually possible for a single person to make a proposal to the F&G Commission or Dept. and get them to act on it if it's a good idea. Most ideas start with one person.

Here's some turkey history for you:

http://www.huntandlodge.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=33&t=000114

MD4M found this newsletter and gave it to Moosie to put in HT about 18 months ago.

I'm glad to hear you enjoy turkey hunting!

Hey Paul! Tell me about my agenda again, will ya?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-17-2003 17:41: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Ten Bears]

Good to here, but I never said I enjoyed turkey hunting.

I know alot of people that wish they had never been brought here. They roost on clothes lines, tear up the gardens, and deficate all over the decks and cars. Do you know how hard it is to clean up turkey droppings from the car paint without damaging the clear coat? That stuff is corrosive.

I said I was working to increase the number of turkey that could be killed in a year. I hunt one a year, and that's because I get the tag as part of my Sportsmans Package.

I don't go out of my way to hunt them. If pike fishing is good, I go fishing instead.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Well, I'm sorry to hear you don't enjoy it. I guess you just consider it your civic duty!

I know how it is with the people who complain about them. Ten or fifteen years ago when we'd ask permission to hunt turkeys they'd say, "No. Those are my turkeys and I like having them around." Well, they got what they wanted!

Some of them bitch but still won't let people hunt. Some say, "They only winter here. They're gone now." So we ask to cross their land to go after the turkeys and they still say no!

Why don't you ask a few motel and restaurant owners in popular turkey hunting areas if it's been good for the economy! How many turkey hunters we got in Idaho now--15,000?

How much do you suppose they spend on turkey hunting each year? How many hunter days has turkey season added? How many guys are saying turkey hunting is the most fun they ever had?

The first year I hunted turkeys in Idaho there were less than 100 turkey permits sold and F&G estimated 400 turkeys in the whole state. They figured that number had remained the same for the last 6-8 years. It took some transplants into a few other spots and some new blood to really get things going.

The amazing thing to me was that all these big time hunters I was meeting in Idaho didn't know anything about turkeys and had never tried to hunt them! Many of them laughed at the idea until they tried it!

 

[Ten Bears]

How is this different then promoting deer hunting in the north rather then hunting deer in the clearwater?

I bet the restaurant owners and inn keepers feel pretty good about having deer hunters booking them up too, but you claim that is a bad issue.

Moosie claims the best turkey decoy is 5 pounds of black sunflower seeds, and the best turkey call is a coffee can with about a cup of cracked corn.

Well he really didn't quite put it that way, but he would if he was given the chance.

Turkey hunting down your way would be almost nonexistant if it hadn't been for the brood production up north.
I often wonder what animals have been displaced by these birds. I will say that there is probably (no one ever did a study) marked decrease in the numbers of forest grouse with the increase in turkey population.

 

[Troy Jones]

Sounds like hunting in Idaho has become as political as hunting the East. The only political problems here are the black tail prairie dog.
Some of the farmers and ranchers here have thrown domestic (white) tom turkeys into the wild flocks. The turkeys then start have domestic traits, white and light tan patches. The G&F doesn't like that and the ag producers have an open door policy for the locals. You want a turkey, come get one and it's perfectly legal any time of the year. That is as long as the turkeys you shoot have those domestic traits.

 

[MarlandS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ten Bears:

I often wonder what animals have been displaced by these birds. I will say that there is probably (no one ever did a study) marked decrease in the numbers of forest grouse with the increase in turkey population.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, that you should mention that, Southern IL has had a decrease in quail since the reintroduction and Northern IL has had a reduction in pheasant populations.

Last year or so I started a thread about turkeys and quail population relaionships (ok I was just trying for a good fight) but could not find any hard scientific sudies just anectdotal stuff, like the occasional guy saying he found a chick in a craw. I've never seen anything about it in Quail Unlimiteds mag and one would think they would have researched it.

 

[BuzzH]

Ten Bears, there just isnt anything Ithaca has done that you agree with is there?

Start the study to see what other birds turkeys "displace".

What a joke, if you are really worried about something "displacing" something else, do a study on how over-grazing and farming have ripped native bird habitat apart...

How about pheasants, chukar, california quail, are they on your hit list too for "diplacing" forest grouse?

Have you seen a significant decline in grouse numbers where turkeys are present? presence of quail? Chukar?

What is the state population of forest grouse? What was it prior to the release of turkeys, and other exotic game birds?

Christ, you are one sour, bitter SOB. I've met very few hunters who would complain about being able to hunt turkeys each year...but I'm constantly amazed.

If you dont like them or hunting them, throw you turkey tag in the trash can, whiner.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, "Turkey hunting down your way would be almost nonexistant if it hadn't been for the brood production up north.
I often wonder what animals have been displaced by these birds. I will say that there is probably (no one ever did a study) marked decrease in the numbers of forest grouse with the increase in turkey population. "

You don't know what you're talking about and you can't find anything to support either of those wild comments.

What's brood production in the north have to do with our explosive turkey population in the south part of Idaho? Can you tell us? I'm talking about the units right around Boise---39, for instance.

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about!

I really do wish you had some credibility. It would make it more interesting to discuss things with you.

I did get a big laugh out of you being inconvenienced by having to hunt turkeys because there's a turkey tag in your sportsman's license package!!!

And the idea of a turkey roosting on a clothesline like a sparrow is a novel one!!! Can you imagine that!!! I'd love to see a picture of it but doubt if one exists, since turkeys need something a little bigger to get a grip on! But your concern about all the turkey shit on cars is certainly something the gummint should look into as soon as they get done cleaning up acid rain!

"How is this different then promoting deer hunting in the north rather then hunting deer in the clearwater?"

One real big difference is that it's not done by restricting hunting opportunities somewhere else. Any time hunting opportunities are unnecessarily restricted it's a bad thing for hunting.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-18-2003 09:48: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>