Ghost Guns

[Brian in Montana]

I'm not trying to stir up political discord, but I saw on the news that Biden is planning to introduce some gun control executive orders. One of them is to eliminate "ghost Guns". Other than they are described as guns assembled from separately ordered parts by a hobbiest, I'm not really clear on what this is. Supposedly they don't have serial numbers and because of that are "difficult to trace". I was under the impression that the receiver always comes with a serial number. The only gun I ever built does.

I think I must be missing or misunderstanding something. (???)

 

[morley.tyler]

You're missing either 80% or 20%. It depends on if you're a glass 1/2 full or a glass 1/2 empty kinda guy. ;-)

 

[D4570]

Many of your old stuff has no Numbers or the numbers were never recorded.
Lots of WW2 stuff has no traceable numbers.

 

[MThuntr]

80% frames aren't firearms when sold thus no serial number
3D printed AR lowers

 

[Lyfter1013]

The most common way is that you purchase what is referred to an 80% lower. This in essence is not a finished lower and cannot be turned directly into a firearm so no serial number is required to purchase as it is just a chunk of metal. However it’s 80% of the way to a lower receiver. You then buy the jigs to drill the rest out and modify the last few parts until it is a finished lower. It now is supposed to receive a serial number but who would be watching you if your in your garage... now you go to the gun store or order offline all other parts to assemble your firearm. Now if you didn’t apply for a serial number when you finished your lower like you’re supposed to (not sure what other state laws are but I am referring to California because I am familiar could be for all states but idk other states laws). You would now have a functioning firearm without a serial number

 

[westbranch]

Its fun. But yeah, kinda feels like there should a background check or something. Get a Glock style handgun in a few hours and no serial number needed in most states for personal use.

80P Builder | Parts for Glock | Polymer 80 Frames

80pbuilder.com

 

[Nick87]

Its fun. But yeah, kinda feels like there should a background check or something. Get a Glock style handgun in a few hours and no serial number needed in most states for personal use.

80P Builder | Parts for Glock | Polymer 80 Frames

80pbuilder.com

Thanks there goes the tax return money.

 

[westbranch]

Thanks there goes the tax return money.

No instructions provided. Have to watch a lot of youtube videos, although I am sure some are handier than I am with some of that stuff.

 

[Nick87]

No instructions provided. Have to watch a lot of youtube videos, although I am sure some are handier than I am with some of that stuff.

Not really, good idea but I doubt ill actually do it, for the same reasons.

 

[Dakotakid]

The original firearms act applied to manufacturing. Firearms built by an individual were not included in the act. How many home built firearms are actually illegally transferred and then used in crimes, is infinitesimally small compared to the firearms stolen, and sold on the street.

 

[MITCHMO]

The original firearms act applied to manufacturing. Firearms built by an individual were not included in the act. How many home built firearms are actually illegally transferred and then used in crimes, is infinitesimally small compared to the firearms stolen, and sold on the street.

Yup that was my first thought. I think it just sounds good to non gun people to get rid of “ghost guns”. Sounds scary, just like the term assault rifle. I was in cabelas one day buying a rifle and it was at the end of the day. They we’re taking every AR style rifle off the floor and putting them on a cart. I asked what that was about. He said they have to put all the AR’s in a safe in the back. I asked why? His response “because these are the dangerous guns”.

 

[RG_Adult_Onset_Hunter]

State laws vary, but for the most part it is legal to manufacture your own firearms intended for personal use. Worth noting is that "manufacture" is pretty broad according to the ATF and would include assembling an upper-lower for an AR). Those do not have to be serialized. It is also legal for you to later decide to sell that same firearm. It would be illegal though to build a gun specifically for sale, because that is clearly engaging in the business of firearms manufacture. That said intent is pretty hard to prove in a court of law (unless you idiotically created a site called "Bob's ghost guns for Felons"), so I think the 80% receivers represent a pretty decent loophole that prohibited persons can use to obtain weapons (not that there are not already a bunch of channels for that anyway). As such I have mixed feelings about going after "Ghost Guns" which is a political rhetoric way of targeting any newly created un-serialized firearm. On the one hand I think that as firearms owners we should be doing everything we can to keep guns out of the hands of prohibited persons. On the other, I'm sad that in my state I can't create an AR-15 in my kitchen via 100% mail order parts. On the balance I'd rather have a few less felons have guns when I have to choose between those two things.

I personally am working to get my FFL and become an SOT to manufacture rifles and silencers for sale. So I still will be able to make guns, they just will be serialized and get sold to people who go through background checks.

 

[OleRedbeard]

The most common way is that you purchase what is referred to an 80% lower. This in essence is not a finished lower and cannot be turned directly into a firearm so no serial number is required to purchase as it is just a chunk of metal. However it’s 80% of the way to a lower receiver. You then buy the jigs to drill the rest out and modify the last few parts until it is a finished lower. It now is supposed to receive a serial number but who would be watching you if your in your garage... now you go to the gun store or order offline all other parts to assemble your firearm. Now if you didn’t apply for a serial number when you finished your lower like you’re supposed to (not sure what other state laws are but I am referring to California because I am familiar could be for all states but idk other states laws). You would now have a functioning firearm without a serial number

In most states you do not have to apply for a serial number to the weapon unless you plan on transferring or selling it.

 

[Glockster]

The Justice Department, within 30 days, will issue a proposed rule to help stop the proliferation of “ghost guns.” We are experiencing a growing problem: criminals are buying kits containing nearly all of the components and directions for finishing a firearm within as little as 30 minutes and using these firearms to commit crimes. When these firearms turn up at crime scenes, they often cannot be traced by law enforcement due to the lack of a serial number. The Justice Department will issue a proposed rule to help stop the proliferation of these firearms.

The Justice Department, within 60 days, will issue a proposed rule to make clear when a device marketed as a stabilizing brace effectively turns a pistol into a short-barreled rifle subject to the requirements of the National Firearms Act. The alleged shooter in the Boulder tragedy last month appears to have used a pistol with an arm brace, which can make a firearm more stable and accurate while still being concealable.

The Justice Department, within 60 days, will publish model “red flag” legislation for states. Red flag laws allow family members or law enforcement to petition for a court order temporarily barring people in crisis from accessing firearms if they present a danger to themselves or others. The President urges Congress to pass an appropriate national “red flag” law, as well as legislation incentivizing states to pass “red flag” laws of their own. In the interim, the Justice Department’s published model legislation will make it easier for states that want to adopt red flag laws to do so.

The Administration is investing in evidence-based community violence interventions. Community violence interventions are proven strategies for reducing gun violence in urban communities through tools other than incarceration. Because cities across the country are experiencing a historic spike in homicides, the Biden-Harris Administration is taking a number of steps to prioritize investment in community violence interventions.


The Justice Department will issue an annual report on firearms trafficking. In 2000, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) issued a report summarizing information regarding its investigations into firearms trafficking, which is one way firearms are diverted into the illegal market where they can easily end up in the hands of dangerous individuals. Since the report’s publication, states, local, and federal policymakers have relied on its data to better thwart the common channels of firearms trafficking. But there is good reason to believe that firearms trafficking channels have changed since 2000, for example due to the emergence of online sales and proliferation of “ghost guns.” The Justice Department will issue a new, comprehensive report on firearms trafficking and annual updates necessary to give policymakers the information they need to help address firearms trafficking today.

The President will nominate David Chipman to serve as Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. ATF is the key agency enforcing our gun laws, and it needs a confirmed director in order to do the job to the best of its ability. But ATF has not had a confirmed director since 2015. Chipman served at ATF for 25 years and now works to advance commonsense gun safety laws.

David Chipman is a senior policy advisor at Giffords.Previously, David served 25 years as a special agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). During his tenure, he disrupted firearms trafficking operations in Virginia that were supplying illegal guns to New York City, served as a member of ATF’s version of SWAT, and was named the Special Agent in Charge of ATF’s Firearms Programs. During his tenure at the Department of Justice, David received the Attorney General’s Award for Outstanding Contributions to Community Partnerships for Public Safety in honor of his efforts aimed at preventing gun homicides in targeted US cities. In addition, David has served two terms on the Firearms Committee of the International Association of Chiefs of police.

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces Initial Actions to Address the Gun Violence Public Health Epidemic | The White House

Today, the Biden-Harris Administration is announcing six initial actions to address the gun violence public health epidemic. The recent high-profile mass shootings in Boulder – taking the lives of 10 individuals – and Atlanta – taking the lives of eight individuals, including six Asian American...

www.whitehouse.gov

It’s a little bit more than just ghost guns. And putting an anti-gun activist at the head of the ATF may not be the best thing for gun owners. But his public land policy is going to be great though.

 

[beginnerhunter]

Given the recent ruling on bump stocks, I'm not sure the ghost gun and AR-Pistol ban will survive the courts. This is probably the sort of thing that will need legislation. But I'm no legal scholar and don't care much either way.

Honestly I'm relieved we're just splitting hairs at this point. Shows that the tide has turned somewhat on gun control. Especially when they were considering background checks for ammo purchases and gun licensing just a few months ago. Granted, once the filibuster is gone all bets are off.

 

[Glockster]

Honestly I'm relieved we're just splitting hairs at this point. Shows that the tide has turned somewhat on gun control. Especially when they were considering background checks for ammo purchases and gun licensing just a few months ago. Granted, once the filibuster is gone all bets are off.

I believe the White House made a statement that this is “just the first step”. I think I will take them at their word.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Ghost guns are the scariest guns out there because they say boo.

I can see regulating the 80% market. Those kits are purposely designed to circumvent the law. It's easy to see how someone can print or order 100 billets, manufacture them and sell them on the black market but I think stolen guns are still far more common.

None of what is being proposed will cause a decline in gun violence though. The infrastructure bill will have a more positive impact in that, once those prevailing wage jobs hit the streets.

 

[noharleyyet]

 

[Glockster]

Ghost guns are the scariest guns out there because they say boo.

I can see regulating the 80% market. Those kits are purposely designed to circumvent the law. It's easy to see how someone can print or order 100 billets, manufacture them and sell them on the black market but I think stolen guns are still far more common.

None of what is being proposed will cause a decline in gun violence though. The infrastructure bill will have a more positive impact in that, once those prevailing wage jobs hit the streets.

I would assume the FBI has stats on it somewhere , it would be interesting to see how many “ghost guns” have been used and crimes/murders.
I would imagine it would be much easier just to steal one or buy a high point off the neighborhood drug dealer for 50 bucks.

 

[mxracer317]

From Biden's press confrence today:

"We should also eliminate gun manufacturers from the immunity they receive from the Congress," Biden said, referring to the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA), a law that prevents gunmakers from being sued for crimes committed with guns they sell legally."

Ummm, ok. So it's GM, Ford, etc fault if I drive like an idiot and get in an accident?