Forest Service Reorg - Progress or Politics

[SAJ-99]

This they is protected by the law but not bound by it.

The other they is bound by the law but not protected by it.

I would also say the US system was set up on the concept of "norms", almost more than the actual laws. It was not built for a majority in Congress that just wants to collect a check and a guy like Trump who just says "F*@% your norms and rules, I'll do what I want."

 

[BuzzH]

Trump admin attempts to contain blowback from Forest Service 'reorganization'

The U.S. Forest Service is in damage control. Almost two weeks ago, we published an article documenting the most devastating attack on the U.S. Forest Service in its 121-year history — the gutting of its headquarters, the elimination of every regional office, and the destruction of the largest...

www.hatchmag.com

 

[hank4elk]

Totally illegal and anti American actions.

 

[sclancy27]

The eventual move is to privatize all these functions across all these federal agencies. 2027 Budget request below. The fire management dominates the funding obligation. Probably easiest to transfer that $5b to private contractors in the name of “efficiency”. Capitalism baby!
View attachment 405675

That's been the plan for 40 years. Look at the increase of contracting services. Federal contracts were ~$440 Billion in 2015, estimate for 2025 is ~$830 Billion....That's $6.35 Trillion contracting over the last 10 yrs. We are far better served have government employees do the work (for the most part) than paying a contractor 3-10x (or much more) to do the same work.

 

[BuzzH]

That's been the plan for 40 years. Look at the increase of contracting services. Federal contracts were ~$440 Billion in 2015, estimate for 2025 is ~$830 Billion....That's $6.35 Trillion contracting over the last 10 yrs. We are far better served have government employees do the work (for the most part) than paying a contractor 3-10x (or much more) to do the same work.

On average federal employees make 27% less than equal work in the private sector.

FS pays notorious less than equal work conducted in other federal agencies.

 

[SAJ-99]

That's been the plan for 40 years. Look at the increase of contracting services. Federal contracts were ~$440 Billion in 2015, estimate for 2025 is ~$830 Billion....That's $6.35 Trillion contracting over the last 10 yrs. We are far better served have government employees do the work (for the most part) than paying a contractor 3-10x (or much more) to do the same work.

A major shareholder in Bridger Aerospace would disagree.

 

[Irrelevant]

That's been the plan for 40 years. Look at the increase of contracting services. Federal contracts were ~$440 Billion in 2015, estimate for 2025 is ~$830 Billion....That's $6.35 Trillion contracting over the last 10 yrs. We are far better served have government employees do the work (for the most part) than paying a contractor 3-10x (or much more) to do the same work.

Even if there was some merit to the claims that the private contracted work force is harder working (which it isn't), that perceived benefit doesn't outweigh the fact that contracted employees, by and large, don't care about the job or the resource as much as the actual federal employees do. I want someone who cares to manage my resources.

 

[BuzzH]

A year post-DOGE, Wyoming forest workers still feel uncertainty and chaos - WyoFile

At the U.S. Forest Service, a significant reorganization spurs concerns over research, while a dry winter increases wildfire worries.

wyofile.com

 

[Carnage2011]

That's been the plan for 40 years. Look at the increase of contracting services. Federal contracts were ~$440 Billion in 2015, estimate for 2025 is ~$830 Billion....That's $6.35 Trillion contracting over the last 10 yrs. We are far better served have government employees do the work (for the most part) than paying a contractor 3-10x (or much more) to do the same work.

The problem isn’t that straight forward. I’ve worked right alongside the Forrest Service on several occasions and they are about .01% as efficient as the contractors are. There are probably areas where they are good at what they do but I can say with 1000% certainty that weed spraying isn’t one of them. Last year I provided 6 guys for a volunteer day on USFS land. We treated just under 250 acres with my crew. The USFS sent 3 people in one truck and they didn’t get the 12ish acre campground done. One guy drives, one sprays, the other stands on the plant and marks a GPS point. We have participated in a bunch of these over the years and the FS crew is always the least efficient. Is it really a bad option to put things to bid that actually show results? Yes, our bid will be more expensive than it would be for them to send a crew out. We will also get it done and have results to show for it. For that crew to match what we did would have been 30+ days. They had the easiest access, easiest terrain, and still got 5% of the work done.

Im not a fan of Trumps re-org,
But I’m also not going to act like the FS has provided much value on any projects I’ve been on.

 

[sclancy27]

The problem isn’t that straight forward. I’ve worked right alongside the Forrest Service on several occasions and they are about .01% as efficient as the contractors are. There are probably areas where they are good at what they do but I can say with 1000% certainty that weed spraying isn’t one of them. Last year I provided 6 guys for a volunteer day on USFS land. We treated just under 250 acres with my crew. The USFS sent 3 people in one truck and they didn’t get the 12ish acre campground done. One guy drives, one sprays, the other stands on the plant and marks a GPS point. We have participated in a bunch of these over the years and the FS crew is always the least efficient. Is it really a bad option to put things to bid that actually show results? Yes, our bid will be more expensive than it would be for them to send a crew out. We will also get it done and have results to show for it. For that crew to match what we did would have been 30+ days. They had the easiest access, easiest terrain, and still got 5% of the work done.

Im not a fan of Trumps re-org,
But I’m also not going to act like the FS has provided much value on any projects I’ve been on.

The best-case scenario here is to be able to replace those employees and get better ones.

I think there are certainly places where contracting makes sense. It seems that in your instance it does.

 

[Carnage2011]

The best-case scenario here is to be able to replace those employees and get better ones.

I think there are certainly places where contracting makes sense. It seems that in your instance it does.

I’m not bashing the employees at all. They seemed great. I think the process is the issue. They either need more training, more knowledge, or better equipment. There’s no situation where I’d send 3 employees out with one vehicle and 250 gallons of water for a day.

Not trying to derail the thread, just my experience.

 

[BuzzH]

The problem isn’t that straight forward. I’ve worked right alongside the Forrest Service on several occasions and they are about .01% as efficient as the contractors are. There are probably areas where they are good at what they do but I can say with 1000% certainty that weed spraying isn’t one of them. Last year I provided 6 guys for a volunteer day on USFS land. We treated just under 250 acres with my crew. The USFS sent 3 people in one truck and they didn’t get the 12ish acre campground done. One guy drives, one sprays, the other stands on the plant and marks a GPS point. We have participated in a bunch of these over the years and the FS crew is always the least efficient. Is it really a bad option to put things to bid that actually show results? Yes, our bid will be more expensive than it would be for them to send a crew out. We will also get it done and have results to show for it. For that crew to match what we did would have been 30+ days. They had the easiest access, easiest terrain, and still got 5% of the work done.

Im not a fan of Trumps re-org,
But I’m also not going to act like the FS has provided much value on any projects I’ve been on.

I think its pretty lame to draw the conclusion that the FS is less efficient from your limited experience spraying weeds.

I've inspected a crap load of contract work and to be nice, some of it is a far cry from stellar.

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

I think its pretty lame to draw the conclusion that the FS is less efficient from your limited experience spraying weeds.

I've inspected a crap load of contract work and to be nice, some of it is a far cry from stellar.

Tbh, my experience is that the only thing contractors love talking shit about more than the work quality of other contractors is the government.

Not specifically directed at @Carnage2011 , but in general I've never talked to an electrician that believes any other electrician is worth a damn. Similar experience with flooring operations and timber operations.

 

[Carnage2011]

I think its pretty lame to draw the conclusion that the FS is less efficient from your limited experience spraying weeds.

I've inspected a crap load of contract work and to be nice, some of it is a far cry from stellar.

I’m sure that’s true. There are bad apples in every profession. I’m not saying all contractors are great either.

My experience isn’t exactly limited. I’ve worked a shit load on a large variety of vegetation work with the FS over the last 17 years and across several states. I was just using the weed spraying I’ve witnessed as an example.

I’m not picking on the people. I think it’s a combination of issues, Between training, red tape, And low wages.

 

[Irrelevant]

The problem isn’t that straight forward. I’ve worked right alongside the Forrest Service on several occasions and they are about .01% as efficient as the contractors are. There are probably areas where they are good at what they do but I can say with 1000% certainty that weed spraying isn’t one of them. Last year I provided 6 guys for a volunteer day on USFS land. We treated just under 250 acres with my crew. The USFS sent 3 people in one truck and they didn’t get the 12ish acre campground done. One guy drives, one sprays, the other stands on the plant and marks a GPS point. We have participated in a bunch of these over the years and the FS crew is always the least efficient. Is it really a bad option to put things to bid that actually show results? Yes, our bid will be more expensive than it would be for them to send a crew out. We will also get it done and have results to show for it. For that crew to match what we did would have been 30+ days. They had the easiest access, easiest terrain, and still got 5% of the work done.

Im not a fan of Trumps re-org,
But I’m also not going to act like the FS has provided much value on any projects I’ve been on.

Everyone has stories like that.

My experience is that contractors focus on doing the absolute shittiest job possible and still get paid. And then brag about it

 

[mtmuley]

Everyone has stories like that.

My experience is that contractors focus on doing the absolute shittiest job possible and still get paid. And then brag about it

Yeah I bet. Great for repeat business. mtmuley

 

[SAJ-99]

. I was just using the weed spraying I’ve witnessed as an example.

I wish I could remember the last time I saw weed spraying. I really don’t care who is doing it, just do more of it.

 

[jimh406]

On average federal employees make 27% less than equal work in the private sector.

I don't think there is usually equivalent work in the private sector.

However, I don't personally care if they are paid less or more. I'm ok with whatever the market will bear. I do think there should be the same employment rules as the private sector. I don't think that's the case now.

I'm sure it's an outlier, but the top TVA employee recently resigned after a limit was placed on the maximum pay. He wasn't the only one, but what sense does it make for many employees of the federal government to make more than the President?

 

[Irrelevant]

more than the President?

Are we including his graft?
Most private sector senior managers make more than his symbolic salary.

 

[BuzzH]

I don't think there is usually equivalent work in the private sector.

However, I don't personally care if they are paid less or more. I'm ok with whatever the market will bear. I do think there should be the same employment rules as the private sector. I don't think that's the case now.

I'm sure it's an outlier, but the top TVA employee recently resigned after a limit was placed on the maximum pay. He wasn't the only one, but what sense does it make for many employees of the federal government to make more than the President?

You probably shouldn't try thinking, there absolutely is equivalent private sector work in every FS position.

You say you want equal rules, but you would be the first to cry and whine if that were to ever happen...and that's a fact.