CWD found on elk ranch again

[BuzzH]

Oak,

I agree with you, any group thats supposedly cares about their cause, then defends a non-member for breaking the law, is not doing themselves any favors. You also cant trust them.

What good are rules on game farms if they arent complied with?

Even more reason why elk farms need to go.

Elkchsr, it wasnt mob rule that passed 143, it was a legal initiative passed by the majority of the citizens of Montana.

Thats life in America...welcome aboard.

 

[elkfarmer]

BLA_BLA_BLA_BLABLA... who here supports the NRA?

 

[ELKCHSR]

LMAO Elkfarmer...

Thats life in America...welcome aboard.

Yep, that's life in America, same as "Dubya" going along and doing the peoples will and just raining on you guy's parade....LMAO!!!!

 

[elkfarmer]

Thanks ELKCHSR. How come nobody answered my question?

"elkfarmer has got them on the ropes, he's digging in for the knock out punch, right arm is cocked, and---"

to be continued........

 

[Tom]

I support the NRA, why do you ask? The CEBA pres. statement looks good to me,
http://www.wapiti.net/ceba/library2.cfm?articleID=106

In fact, it looks real good.

 

[ELKCHSR]

The reason no one answers questions, is that they don't have any ammo, so instead of saying some thing, they just stay silent, they do the same thing in SI also...

 

[elkfarmer]

Thats right ELKCHSR, I feel like i walked in the middle of a chicken farm, you know how they all tuck their head and run away from you when you go in the pen?

LMAO, mabey if i say it in chicken they will understand it?

 

[Oak]

Tom, I found another article that says the CEBA has taken no official position on the Motherwell ranch. So in that regard, I was wrong. However, they also stated that they don't think the ranch should be de-populated, even though an elk came back positive for CWD early this year. That's a pretty ridiculous position, especially considering that the ranch is not double-fenced, and one of the state's primary concerns is the fence around the place.

As for the president's statement you posted...that must be somewhat old. Ron Walker isn't president any more, it's Tom Cox. The following quote from his statement is full of BS:

Some will claim that "overwhelming evidence" points to the ranches. But how do they explain the most recent CWD discoveries in the wild in Jefferson and Boulder counties - far from any ranch? Or the Western Slope outbreak, where six wild deer have tested positive for CWD, but 30 domestic elk have all tested negative?

First of all, Boulder and Jefferson counties border the CWD endemic area, which explains how CWD got there. Nobody is saying that elk farms are the only way CWD is spread, only that they contribute to it's spread. Check out the map at *this LINK* . The elk farm in question is right on the boundary of units 12 and 13, right where the blue dot is on the line. The oldest elk farm in the state is just west of there, bordering the one in question. Interesting pattern, eh?

Secondly, the statement about no game farm elk on the West Slope testing positive is BS. A bull tested positive on the Motherwell in January.

That means that our herds in Colorado - which have been monitored for 48 months -- cannot spread the disease. And it means the state can safely allow the industry to export elk, as well as to import elk that have been monitored for 36 months.

Once again, an elk tested positive this year, so how safe is it to be exporting them? Attitudes like that are what got the elk farmers in trouble in the first place. They think they know everything there is to know about the disease, until something new happens. There's not a whole lot of erring on the side of caution with that bunch.

I don't really care what stance the CEBA takes on the Motherwell. They already took an anti-hunting stance to save their asses, so I don't know why anyone who enjoys legitimate hunting would support them. Check out this quote from Ron Walker:

Although the elk-hunting ranches have been much criticized, they're actually more ethical than most other recreational hunts. Not only are the elk running free on tracts of land encompassing as much as four or five square miles, but professional guides also supervise hunts to ensure an accurate and precise kill. We don't allow wounded elk to run away and suffer extended, painful deaths, as happens so often in unsupervised hunts.

**LINK**
Why would any hunter want to support his organization???

Elkfarmer, what question are you babbling about? The one about the NRA? I don't have a clue what that has to do with elk farms in CO, but I didn't answer it because you asked, "who here supports the NRA?" I don't support them, so it makes no sense for me to answer. Would you support an organization that made a statement about "unsupervised hunts" like the one above?

Oak

 

[Tom]

I see the frustration of this ranch's CWD problems not being delt with swiftly, because Co has got the biggest population of elk in the country and that is at risk.

If we kill out all the game farm elk once its found there on that game farm, why don't we kill out all the elk herd once its found in a wild herd too?

If you ask yourself that, I mean killing them off is how many want it controlled, you can see why CEBA is interested in developing other methods to deal with the disease.

Should we do that Oak, kill off the wild herd when its found there? If not, why not? Does this disease hurt anybody? I'm thinking that guy was praticing his legal options, and people don't really want to kill them all off. They need a better way of dealing with it, but they don't have it. So, should we kill of the wild herd where its found? What say ye, you biologist guys?

 

[elkfarmer]

You see OAK, i threw out that question because most people here support the NRA. The NRA supports the right to have AK-47, MAC-10, TEC-9, AR-15 because that is what they do. When someone is killed by a gun like this you never hear them with the "get rid of them all" speach, do you.

That is what is happening here, CEBA is going to stand up for elk breeders. In every walks of life there are crooked people, part of life. I am not sticking up for this guy here so don't get me wrong. I believe in rules, and when you don't follow them something should happen to that individual, not everyone assosiated with them.


Now, the elk breeders are doing an awfull lot in helping to understand this disease, but guys like you are so focused on the bad you don't even see the good.

breeders are not the only way this spreads, we all agree on that right? why is the only solution i ever hear is to get rid of the breeders. seems really childish.

CWD has only ever been found in less that 1% of the elk population and i believe less than 3% of the deer population. Is it really worth all the bad that it has created, i don't think so.


and oh yea, for all you NRA supporters. somewhere, someone last night used one of the above mentiond guns to murder someone, all those in favor of banning "ALL" guns say "I"....

8-9-10---ding-ding

 

[ELKCHSR]

Elk farmers, if I remember right from when this one was going on heavy a couple years ago, were by far putting the most money into finding out the answers, not the tax payers, not the sportsmen....

 

[Elkhunter]

Very good elkfarmer.

 

[Oak]

Elk farmers, if I remember right from when this one was going on heavy a couple years ago, were by far putting the most money into finding out the answers, not the tax payers, not the sportsmen....

You've got to be joking... I'd like to see you substantiate that comment.

Not much time now...I'll reply more later.

Oak

 

[elkfarmer]

Thanks Elkhunter. just trying to be realistic.

And Oak, ELKCHSR is right. elk farmers, most from Co. i believe are heavily involved. Most everyone else is to focused on ONE solution. Pretty shallow in my book.

 

[pa mt man]

I'll comment. I don't like that statement but I'd say there is a lot of truth to it. I wouldn't call it anti-hunting. I didn't take the time to read the whole story.
I just got a RMEF hunt sweepstakes in the mail on a 95,000 acre ranch in NM. You have to pass a preliminary muzzleloader test before you are allowed to hunt.(poor canadians have to take a math test too). I'd say if you hit one and didn't get it your hunt would be over. I think this would be "more ethical than most other recreational hunts". don

 

[elkfarmer]

it is whatever i say? LMAO

OAK, you seem big on the facts, i am not going to go get them just because i am tired of proving myself right. but i sure would like to see your facts. 40%, yea right. look at the facts OAK, how many elk farms have been wiped out because of 1 case of CWD, then they test the rest of the heard and that could have been the only case, 40% my ass.

now for your double fence idea, good idea, but the state should pay for it, to keep their infected heard away from the clean fenced in ones. they were the ones to create this mess, mabey it is time for them to take responibilty for their action. And yes i read some of the article you put on, but for that one i can show numerous ones about infection rate if i had the time.

as far as the statement made about hunting in a fence, all he was doing was promoting that type of hunting. and it is a fact, i have found dead deer and a spike elk when hunting, haven't you. IT does happen, in a fence it doesn't. he didn't claim it as being unethical to hunt, he just said more ethical to hunt in a fence.

I say, no more guns sold, no more vehicles sold, and no more ciggerates sold cause they all kill people. how would you feel about that OAK.....


I will be back later, right now i am going to grab my gun, get in my truck and my pack of smokes and go shoot some woodchucks, before someone says that is wrong too.

 

[Oak]

Tom,
No, I don't think entire infected wild herds need to be extirpated. Wild animals are not artificially confined to close quarters. Studies have shown infection rates much higher in captive herds than rates seen in the wild. Take the time to read (and better yet, understand) the following two articles. I'm not going to cut and paste them here. One is on the incidence of CWD in captive mule deer, the other on elk.
*Mule deer link*
*Elk link*

Those articles show that CWD rates can be much higher in captive herds than in the wild (in the mule deer study, 20 of 21 fawns in the study eventually contracted CWD). Couple that with the fact that there's no regulation requiring elk farms to be double fenced, and you create a permanent source of infection for wild herds, with a potentially much higher rate of infection.

I've said in the past that I would be willing to compromise by every elk farm be double fenced, at the owner's cost. This would at least reduce the chance of contact between farm muntants and wild ungulates. I'd like to see no more elk farm permits issued, and I'd like them to make the current permits non-transferrable to anyone, including relatives. That seems pretty darn reasonable to me.

Elkfarmer,

the elk breeders are doing an awfull lot in helping to understand this disease, but guys like you are so focused on the bad you don't even see the good.

So show me the good they are doing in helping to understand the disease. Better yet, show me how they are providing more money than anyone else (as Elkchsr said, and you concurred) to study CWD. I call BS on that one.

breeders are not the only way this spreads, we all agree on that right? why is the only solution i ever hear is to get rid of the breeders. seems really childish.

First of all, you're admitting that elk farmers are spreading the disease, that's great! Secondly, tell me the other ways it's spread. I'll take a stab at it. It's spreading slowly out from the endemic area in CO and northern WY. How do you propose to solve that? CWD can theoretically be spread by transporting carcasses of infected animals into areas CWD does not exist and disposed by-products of the carcasses contamianting the area. You can take a look a the CO hunting regulations to see how that issue is already being addressed.

What other ways is it spread? I'm not saying that elk farmers are the only way, I'm saying that we should be trying to do something about every way, including farmers.

CWD has only ever been found in less that 1% of the elk population and i believe less than 3% of the deer population. Is it really worth all the bad that it has created, i don't think so.

You need to quantify that statement. What populations are you talking about? Overall populations, endemic area populations, what? CWD has been found at rates much higher than that (up to 40%) where animals are congregated in the wild. That's why the CDOW has done focussed culling in those hotspots. They've been pretty effective at reducing the infection rates in those areas, although there's a lot of hunters out there who don't agree with it.

And Oak, ELKCHSR is right. elk farmers, most from Co. i believe are heavily involved.

Elkfarmer, Elkchsr is not right. He said they are providing more money than anyone else to study CWD. Prove it.

Hey, none of you commented on the anti-hunting statement by CEBA's former president. Remember this?

Although the elk-hunting ranches have been much criticized, they're actually more ethical than most other recreational hunts. Not only are the elk running free on tracts of land encompassing as much as four or five square miles, but professional guides also supervise hunts to ensure an accurate and precise kill. We don't allow wounded elk to run away and suffer extended, painful deaths, as happens so often in unsupervised hunts.

Tom, elkfarmer, elkchsr? Elkhunter? What do you think? Do you have an opinion, or is it "whatever elkfarmer says"?

Oak

 

[Tom]

In Michigan, there's that high fence deer place. The deer and the cattle transfered some disease back and forth, as I understand it, over a period of years. Now, the deer ranch owners have one fence to protect their deer from the state deer and the state has one high fence to protect the state deer from the ranch deer. Some states have the double fence requirement, but I"m not up on how effective it is.

We don't have double fencing in Texas and we have not had it ever and we don't even have one case of CWD yet, as far as I know.

I don't know when a double fence would be of any use, unless each neighbor wanted to protect themselves from the other neighbors animal snot.

There's electric fences too, maybe that would be just as effective, if needed at all. I think you put one wire high and one wire low a few feet apart and animals really don't like crossing it. That might be a more economical consideration for CDOW?

If you accept culling in the wild, Oak, it seems like you would accept culling in a high fence area. You could sample enough animals, to assure the rate was below some threshold. I guess you accept some threshold of CWD, since you don't want to kill them out in the wild.

I'll read your links sometime. What's the main point of them?

 

[ELKCHSR]

You silly Oak...
I said if I remembered right, the articles that were posted on this board at the time stated that the largest amount of money that was collected for research came from the farms themselves.
Every thing does point to that fact of what I have read that the disease escaped from State run facility, so why should the blame then be on the game farms for creating this mess any way, it should come from the state it was started in and have them pay the entire bill.

 

[elkfarmer]

Nice replies Tom and ELKCHSR.