CWD found on elk ranch again

[Oak]

Maybe it's the whole thinking process of "one bad apple spoiles the bunch" that should be changed.

I don't know how to describe it better. All it takes is one elk farmer to not follow the rules in Challis or Livingston or [insert any other CWD free area], and you have a contaminated wild herd. Maybe you don't think CWD is a big deal, but do you want to have it in the area you hunt? The issue, for me, is how are we going to protect the wild herds?

Bob, I understand that there's already a lot of costs involved in running an elk operation. I don't think that has any bearing on whether or not they should pay for fencing and testing. I'm glad to see that there is at least ONE elk farmer that believes these are costs of doing business. I can show you many, many cases of them NOT agreeing with this. Heck, see elkfarmer's posts above.

Speaking of elkfarmer, I see he had nothing to add after I proved he was full of it. How about backing up some of those wild-assed claims, elkfarmer?

Tom said:

I was trying to point out that people who raise elk spend a lot of money on them and work hard raising them and keeping them healthy. Hunters just spend a little money, what's your elk tag cost you?, on them and want someone else to keep them healthy for them.

Tom, elk farmers spend money to keep their herds healthy. How many elk hunters are there? How many elk farmers? Which group, overall, do you think pays more to manage my wild elk herds?

Oak

 

[BbarC]

Some good points MD4M. WH now we go throwing around that "welfare" word again concerning something that you just don't like period. I can't see what it really means here.
I've heard of paoching cases and illegal hunting cases where the offender has to pay replacement cost for the elak they killed and it has run from $1500 to $2500 per animal. Wonder how they determined those values. Could it be that it costs that much to raise an animal?? Well now go figure that ???????

 

[BbarC]

Oak you being from Co know first hand that Cdow is not going to get off their arses and do anything to help hunting. I've hunted Colorado all my life and they are the least helpful bunch I know of. All they seem to be interested in is making money off licenses to pay the salaries of the employees. This may be one thing you and I may can agree on.

 

[Oak]

Bob, I'm not sure we can agree on that one. I definately don't agree with this statement:

All they seem to be interested in is making money off licenses to pay the salaries of the employees.

Be sure to not confuse the CDOW with the Wildlife Commission. The commission, which has the DOW under it's thumb and must approve new policies, etc, is run by a bunch of agriculture crooks.

If you want to see what I'm talking about, check out this post I made a little over a year ago. Some names may have changed, but it's still the same situation. ***The Joke That Is The Colorado Wildlife Commission***

Oak

 

[BbarC]

Sorry Oak, thought that since you were a resident that you might REALLY know what was going on. It ALL revolves around money.

 

[Oak]

Right, I know that it all revolves around money. But what I'm saying is that it's not the CDOW making the decisions. It's the Wildlife Commission, and commission members are appointed by the governor. Our governor doesn't do hunters many favors. I could show you countless examples from the last two or three years where the Wildife Commission or the former director has gone against the recommendations of the DOW biologists. Sadly, it IS all about the money.

Oak

 

[BbarC]

Oak if DOw or the commission had not been worried about disrupting hunting and thus the MONEY FOR THEIR JOBS and had taken care of this mess when it was first discovered in the wild and checked the VERY FEW farms that existed at that time, you and I could be talking today about more pleasant subjects. I really fault the DOW/COMMISION for not paying attention to business.

 

[Oak]

I agree to an extent. But what folks don't realize is that, although the DOW knew about the disease in the late 60's, they didn't know what it WAS until the late 70's. They didn't realize what a problem it was until the mid-80's, and when they really started getting tough about it, the Colorado Legislature took away their regulating power over game farms and gave it to the Dept. of Ag. McConnell's fiasco happened under the watchful eye of the DOA. It's unfortunate that the DOW didn't realize what an issue the disease was going to become. I don't think CWD was a money issue back then. I think it was plain ignorance of the situation.

Oak

 

[BbarC]

Oak thanks for the exchanges this afternoon. I got to go now and finish an antler table I've been building. Need to get it finnished this afternoon, been working on it for a week. Bob

 

[Tom]

Oak, I'm thinking maybe the ranchers spend more.

On a per person basis they do.
On a per elk basis they do.
On a total dollars, we'd have to tally it up, but look at this.

"Annual costs of elk on the 5 ranches (i.e., increase in gross margin from elk removal) ranged from $5,949 to $21,152." from J. of Range Management.
http://uvalde.tamu.edu/jrm/mar02/torstenson.htm
Say it takes 5 hunters to get one elk, I've heard that average, even in a state like Colorado with the most elk of any state.

The hunters would have to pay $1250 per elk tag to just pay the minimal, not the average, not the maximum, range costs of one elk. How much does your elk tag cost you? What about all the other costs BbarC is talking about that he pays too?

It looks like elk farmers spend a lot more, looking at it that way.

 

[Oak]

Tom, Tom, Tom....

I'm talking about wild elk, not tame ones. WILD. W-I-L-D. Go re-read what I said.

Who spends more on wild elk, hunters or game farmers? The amount farmers spend on their tame elk has no bearing on this discussion.

Bob,
We're not to far away from each other on most issues, just have different ways of getting to the same result.

Oak

 

[elkfarmer]

here you go CHOAK, you seem to be big on posting articles, like i said there are tons of articles to read on this. Thing is, people don't want to read the hole thing, let me know when you want more info.

and oh yea, I have plenty to say, but sometimes talking to ignorance doesn't get you anywhere. There are some very levelheaded people on this board, and then there is you and the very few that think you are right. You are so focused on only one solution you are blinded by the cause. what is it CHOAK, let us all know what is really bothering you. Is it really CWD or is it elk farming? Or is it that you are so board with yourself, that you feel like striking up a disagreement on here so you have something to do all day? you didn't scare me off by any means CHOAK, I just have a life....
Please, everyone read on and learn a little bit.
I have never stood up for those that break the rules, I dont make excuses for them and believe that there should be consequenses for those that decide to break the rules.

And CHOAK, seeing how you really "care" about this, why don't you get more involved. you know what, mabey the elk farmers don't have to take the blunt of this, cause you know what if all the elk farms closed up shop WE WOULD STILL HAVE CWD...


1. What is CWD?
Chronic wasting disease (CWD), a part of a family of diseases referred to as transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs), is a disease of the brain and central nervous system of cervids such as mule deer, white-tailed deer and elk. A World Health Organization report indicates that there is some evidence of genetic resistance to CWD among elk/wapiti, but not among the other deer species. Other forms of TSE include scrapie, which is widely found in sheep, bovine spongiform encephaolopathy (BSE), which affects cattle, and Creutzfeld-Jakob disease in humans (CJD). Other animals that contract TSEs include cats, mink and squirrels.

Scientists have studied scrapie in sheep for more than 200 years. Despite the consumption of scrapie-infected sheep for hundreds of years, no case of scrapie or variant CJD has ever occurred, or has even been suggested to have occurred in humans.

2. What are CWD’s symptoms?
Animals may show a number of different signs as the disease slowly damages their brain. Affected deer and elk become listless, lack coordination, lose significant weight, suffer from depression, exhibit unusual behavior, become paralyzed, show an increased thirst and urination and eventually die.

3. What are the causes of CWD?
A poorly understood agent called proteinaceous infection particles or prion causes CWD. Prions are destructive brain proteins that can damage healthy brain proteins. It is not yet known if prions are capable of damage on their own or if they act in concert with or are the result of another infectious agent. Diseases caused by prions are called spongiform encephalopathies because they cause cavities and holes in the brain, causing the brain to visually resemble a sponge.

4. How is it transmitted?
How CWD is transmitted from one animal to another is not yet completely understood. In the cases of CWD in wild deer in Colorado and Wyoming, both maternal and lateral transmission appeared likely. Transmission of the disease appeared to occur between deer that were in close proximity to each other. A close study of the disease indicates that lateral transmission is the major means of transmission, because most affected animals in Colorado and Wyoming were not related to each other. It is thought that CWD is transmitted through the saliva, feces or urine. Once ingested, the disease has an incubation period of 16-30 months before the onset of clinically observed symptoms.

The BSE outbreak in Europe in cattle is believed to have been caused by the unwise and continual feeding of cattle with scrapie-infected animal products. This feeding of slaughterhouse remains of sheep and cattle, some of which were infected with BSE and scrapies, to the next generation of cattle is thought to have caused the vertical transmission of the disease.

In contrast, farmed deer and elk are fed a grain-based diet and are prohibited from being fed animal products. NAEBA and AEPB (American Elk Products Board) industry regulations prohibit the feeding of “mammalian tissue” back to the farmed elk and deer. This responsible position is a function of the leadership role that the farmed elk and deer industry has taken with regard to the eradication of CWD in deer and elk.

5. How is it diagnosed?
The current method of testing for CWD is through a brain examination of a deceased animal. World scientists are working diligently on developing a live animal test for the entire class of TSE diseases, and an accurate test is generally thought to be close at hand.

6. What is the origin of CWD?
Like the entire class of TSE diseases, CWD in all likelihood has existed in wild animals for hundreds of years. Most of the CWD in farmed elk appears to trace back to the Colorado Division of Wildlife research pens where CWD first appeared in 1967. Mule deer from this facility were given to the Denver Zoo. The Denver Zoo gave some mule deer to the Tor onto Zoo and also sold some animals, which eventually arrived at an elk ranch in South Dakota. It is widely believed that most of the CWD herds in the United States and Canada can be traced to this South Dakota herd.

State wildlife agencies understand their role and responsibility to control CWD in the wild deer and elk populations. The Colorado Division of Wildlife plans to reduce CWD deer by 50% includes issuing large numbers of hunting licenses to landowners in the area.

State wildlife agencies have reiterated common sense precautions against handling or consuming meat from elk or deer that appear to be diseased. Offal, brain, and spinal cord tissue, as well as all meat from affected animals, should not be used as food or as a protein source in animal food. Colorado DOW has dropped its required testing of hunted deer and elk for CWD.

7. How many elk have been affected by CWD in North America?
Chronic wasting disease primarily affects wild deer and elk, appears to be rare and spreads very slowly. The USDA reports that, of the more than 5,000 wild deer and elk that have been tested since 1990, only 110 clinically affected animals had been identified with CWD. Generally, less than 1% of the wild elk and 5% of wild mule deer in the affected areas are believed to be CWD-positive.

The incidences of CWD in farm elk and deer are even more rare. Those that have been identified are being eradicated. A total of 16 herds in the United States had at least one animal diagnosed with CWD: five in Colorado, one in Montana, two in Nebraska, one in Oklahoma and seven in South Dakota. All of the herds in Canada that have been indentified as having at least one infected elk have been, or are in the process of being, depopulated.

8. Can CWD affect antlers or meat products?
CWD disease affects the brain and central nervous system of deer and elk. There is no scientific evidence that antler, muscle tissue or other parts of the animal contain CWD prions. Furthermore, there are no federal or state restrictions against the consumption of meat or antler products from wild or domestic elk or deer. Some states have recommended against consuming deer or elk that appear to be diseased as well as consuming the brain or spinal cord of any cervid. Other states have recommended care when dressing carcasses and minimal handling of the spine or brain, especially in animals from areas where CWD has occurred.

However, in response to consumers’ concerns, elk ranchers have voluntarily banned the sale of antler or meat products from infected herds.

9. Have products from CWD-infected elk and deer been sold from the U.S. or Canada?
Although no evidence exists that CWD is a threat to humans and no evidence exists that CWD can even infect antlers, elk and deer ranchers have acted compassionately, responsibly and proactively with respect to consumers’ concerns and animal health.

The Canadian Cervid Council has reported that no velvet antler products from herds known to have at least one CWD case have been sold in Canada or elsewhere. Elk breeders in the U.S. have agreed that no antler from CWD-infected herds is to be sold. In addition, elk ranchers from infected herds in South Dakota, out of respect to consumers’ concerns, did not sell antler from CWD present herds and instead, voluntarily eradicated their herds.

A ban on selling meat or velvet products from infected herds is part of the CWD eradication and control program developed by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA).

10. Can an animal with CWD be treated?
There is no known treatment for an animal with CWD.

11. What has been done to eliminate CWD?
While animal diseases are fairly prevalent in wild populations, the farmed elk and deer industry has taken a leadership role in eliminating these diseases. To date, tuberculosis and brucellosis have been eliminated from the domestic cervidae industry. Out of compassion for their elk and deer and in response to consumers’ health concerns, the North American Elk Breeders Association (NAEBA) has taken a leading role in developing a comprehensive and aggressive CWD control and eradication program.

Based on NAEBA’s recommendations to the United States Animal Health Association, many states in the U.S. and provinces in Canada have instituted mandatory and voluntary testing and monitoring programs. With input from the elk farming industry, both the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) have developed comprehensive programs for the control and eventual eradication of chronic wasting disease that include surveillance, monitoring, and indemnification.

The first step in eliminating any disease, no matter how rare, is to contain it. Since 1997, United States feed companies have been prohibited from feeding ruminant-derived meat and bone meal back to ruminants, including deer and elk. This stands in stark contrast to the practices in Europe and elsewhere where infected animal protein was continually fed to cattle, which some scientists claim as the cause of BSE in cattle. It is widely thought that this simple action in itself is significantly responsible for the extremely low incidence and slow spread of CWD in North America and will make the rapid elimination of this disease probable.

States located in the geographic areas that have had reported incidences of CWD in elk and deer have instituted mandatory CWD “surveillance” of herds. This mandate requires each and every brain of a farmed elk or deer that perishes for any reason to be submitted to the USDA’s National Veterinary Services Laboratory in Ames, Iowa for examination. In this manner, any animal that may have died from CWD can be positively identified. Since the three years of surveillance exceed the incubation and symptom display period for CWD, these states are confident that they can state they are CWD free. This same effective policy has been used to eliminate TB and other livestock diseases. Further, it is prohibited to move ANY animal off of a farm where any CWD case has been diagnosed. Herds identified with CWD are being depopulated.

In addition, the Elk Research Council and others in the elk industry are funding research to develop a live-animal test for CWD and to increase knowledge of the disease. The study will cost $250,000 over a four-year period.

Unfortunately, efforts to contain, control and eradicate CWD are compromised by the lack of a coordinated CWD containment program by state wildlife divisions. While great efforts have been made to contain brucellosis in cattle in Montana and Wyoming, brucellosis in free-ranging bison have been a threat to these states’ cattle industry. Similarly, uncontrolled CWD-infected wild elk and deer could undermine the efforts of elk and deer farmers to eradicate the disease.

12. Is CWD transmissible to humans?
According to public health officials and wildlife experts, there is no scientific evidence indicating that CWD can be transmitted to humans. In fact, research conducted at the Rocky Mountain Laboratories in Montana, a National Institutes for Health center, has determined that a molecular barrier significantly limits the susceptibility of humans, cattle and sheep.

Although scrapie in sheep has been studied and consumed by humans for more than 200 years, it has never crossed the species barrier to humans.

In addition, there is no real-life evidence that CWD can be transmitted from deer and elk to cattle.

According to John Pape, an epidemiologist with the Colorado Department of Health, “There is no indication that chronic wasting disease is a threat to human health.”

13. What unique benefits do deer and elk products offer?
Elk are raised as livestock for medicinal use, meat, breeding stock and trophy bulls. Velvet antler has been used for more than 2,000 years in Asia and Europe and is gaining popularity in the United States. Velvet antler has been shown to improve joint health, increase muscular strength, accelerate muscle recovery, support the immune system and improve energy and stamina. In Asia, velvet antler has been traditionally used to increase libido. Olympic athletes, bodybuilders and active people of all ages use velvet antler. In addition, elk meat is a high-protein, low-fat food source. Lastly, elk and deer ranches have provided a viable option for the family farmer and rancher, who have suffered from reduced incomes from grain crops, cattle, hogs and chickens.

.

 

[Oak]

Elkfarmer,
You still think my goal is to eliminate elk farming, huh? Well, I guess you haven't been reading what I've been posting. You're so obsessed with the messenger that you're not hearing the message. I'm concerned with stopping the unnatural spread of CWD in wild animals.

There is some good info in what you posted there, although it's also got a nice pro-game farm spin. Also, it's a little misleading because it's so old. For instance, it says that only 110 cases have been found in wild deer and elk, but just between Aug. 30, 2003 and Mar. 25, 2004 there was 248 cases in Colorado alone.

I'm done with this topic, unless someone posts something outlandish. It appears that there's only about half a dozen folks here that even care one way or the other anyway. I am curious about one thing, though. What makes you think I'm not involved?

Oak

 

[Tom]

Oak, the reference is about costs to Montana ranchers for w-i-l-d elk. I don't think those elk are as tame as you think, just like I don't think a lot of high fence elk are as tame as you think. Do you think wintering elk are tame when they yard up and get fed at the elk refuges or on ranches, etc.? That would be the time to wipe them out, get rid of CWD spread, like some advocate doing in more controlled situations. Even if you want to distinguish between elk when tame and when wild, an elk still eats a lot, it still costs a lot to provide the feed and hunters pay nothing near that cost. That's the point. For the third time, how much did your elk tag cost you?

I think its safe to say the disease spreads naturally, whether the elk is acting wild or tame.

 

[Oak]

Tom, in your post you said "elk farmers". I didn't realize you were talking about regular ranchers that had wild elk on their property. I don't really know why that situation is relevent to elk farms. My elk tag costs $30, FWIW. Either I'm not following your line of thinking very well, or your mixing issues.

Oak

 

[Tom]

Elk farmers spend even more on elk than regular ranchers, who spend more than hunters.

That's the conclusion I'm coming to.

I think you're saying I'm mixing some issues too, so the statement is irrelevent to you. But that's not the real issue for that first sentance, to me, I think its a true statement. So, that is one issue I'm not going to mix, the statement in the first sentence is undisputed. Some would say its irrelevent, because it mixes issues. Why get mixed up with what's relevent and irrelevent to some other issue, the statement is true or its false. I think its true.

I guess you're saying, true or not, you'd value the dollars spent by elk farmers more, if they were spent on wild elk in public populations. Most hunters, who want their cheap elk tag supported, would say that, its understandable. You seem to be saying that, despite CWD never being irradicated from those public populations, just slow the spread. Elk breeders want to irradicate CWD and are working toward that. I admire them for it, it does seem like they are doing more to protect their elk. They are convincing me more, I may be better off, with one of their elk, than I would be with the disease infested public elk. If not now, maybe more so, at some time in the future. CWD is spreading in the wild and many only want to slow its spread. A reliable live test and a treatement may change the future outlook someday. I hope so.

 

[Deerslayer]

Bo, everyone understands that Ft. Collins was the place CWD was first found or rather first recognized......but that in no way means that is where it was first originated or wether it is the only source. Fact is, game farms with infected animals will continue to spread the disease until they are eradicated.......and even longer in some cases. Washington Hunter is right in that it is now a mute point who WAS wrong and HOW it started.

As far as the debate over did wild elk give it to the pet farm elk or did the pet farm elk give it to wild elk is much like the debate over which came first...the chicken or the egg? The answer being---it really doesn't matter as long as the eggs are scrambled along with any infected pet elk, with a tabasco topping as optional.

I say the $2800 is too kind an offer for a herd of diseased elk.....why pay for damaged goods?
Elk farming, like many ventures, has risks.....one being eradication when you show to have a deadly incurable disease in your herds. Know the risks and be prepared to pay the piper in the event things don't go peachy keen.......afterall......that IS what the rest of us do in our business ventures.

Let 'em burn.....just my .02

 

[Deerslayer]

Tom,
Like Oak, I can't see what elk farmers spend on pet elk has anything at all to do with wild elk herds. Truth be known.....pet elk farms have caused a great burden to wild populations.....as countless numbers of wild animals have been destroyed surrounding game farms in an effort to see if the infection has spread beyond the fences.

I am all for pet farms......afterall, there has to be a place for pen shooters to go so they don't congregate at the roadsides and trailheads of our national forests. Absolutely nothing wrong with pet farming at all.....but I do think that when a pet farm goes bad, it should be the loss of those that ventured for profit, and not the state or the taxpayer. Afterall, we don't get a cut of the profit in those years all went swell.....????

I like ol'Bob....standup guy and as good as they come. And I would almost bet that should his elk come up sour he would put 'em down himself.....not fight the state on it like that money hungry arsehole from Vegas is doing.

I say pet your elk until they get sick and infected....then bring 'em down for the good of the big picture.......all the wild herds and captive ones alike. Not to do so is facilitating the inevitable spread even farther.

 

[BbarC]

DS, where you been boy???????????
Dam right I would put the whole she bang down in a second if anything arose on any kinda disease. The best prevention is WATCH where your animals come from and follow all the monitoring and testing programs.Guys in the business that have had the problems are ones that purchased elk from anywhere and everyone.Sure I've bought some from even some distant herds, BUT I pretty well knew the guys and their herd reputations.Some of the problem herds have had a "salty" reputation all along. WHen you're in ANY business, there are risks and problems and you have to manage properly and when she blows up , she blows up and you gotta stand the consequences.

 

[elkfarmer]

well said Bbarc and Deerslayer