I'd absolutely love to see more espicially the scapie-CWD link you mentioned. We've known for a long time where the first documented case was and looking back some of those things done by Colorado Department of Wildlife were certainly stupid, espicially considering the implications of introducing the disease into wild herds. My problem is that there seems to be some recurring problem with outbreaks on game farms and interstate commerce of animals where a live test is not available. How do you know for a fact a elk you get from Canada or some other state is definitely CWD free? I'm all for some healthy debate and mutual education on this subject.
CWD found on elk ranch again
- Thread starter Oak
- Start date
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
It really doesn't matter how or where CWD started, what matters is that most recent cases of CWD have been on elk farms, and shipping elk all over the country contributes to the spread of the disease. What the state of Colorado did back in 1967 can't be changed now, but elk farming can be outlawed.
elkfarmer
New member
washington huntress, are you really this ignorant. so if that is what you believe then i guess you must hate the RMEF right?
tom, you really can't be sure. but if cwd has only ever infected less than 1% of the elk population , it is not as big of a deal as what is lead to believe. mad cow has been around for years, that kills people. why isn't everyone trying to shut that down.
and washington huntress, if the great co. dow was honest to begin with.....nevermind
free the elk
free the elk
tom, you really can't be sure. but if cwd has only ever infected less than 1% of the elk population , it is not as big of a deal as what is lead to believe. mad cow has been around for years, that kills people. why isn't everyone trying to shut that down.
and washington huntress, if the great co. dow was honest to begin with.....nevermind
free the elk
BuzzH
Well-known member
Elkfarmer, I think you better keep up the research.
I've never read anything that definitely proves that CWD originated in the CSU study area in Ft. Collins. The disease was RECOGNIZED there first, but that really doesnt prove that it started there.
But, for the sake of arguement, lets assume that it did start in what is basially a "game farm" in Ft. Collins in the 1960's.
To me, thats even more proof, and more reason NOT to allow any more game farms. If the disease started in a game farm, whats stopping it from starting in game farms everywhere they're found? Not much, and because places like MT have ONLY found CWD on game farms, I'd have to make the logical assumption that CWD is a result of penning up elk. What other assumption can you make?
If you believe the Ft. Collins Research area was the ONLY source of CWD, you'd also think that every domestic elk that has it could be traced back to the original infected herd in Ft. Collins. There has to be documentation of where the domestic herds came from (oh, thats right, the record keeping is so PISS POOR with the elk farms I guess that isnt true), apparently they ALL came form ancestors of the herd in Ft. Collins. True?
Either that or theres some poaching assed elk farmers out there taking infected elk out of the wild to bolster their herds. So, which is it? Are all elk infected with CWD direct decendants of the original herd, are elk farmers poaching wild elk infected by the original herds, or do game farms actually self-propogate CWD?
I'd have to say the latter of those 3 options.
I've never read anything that definitely proves that CWD originated in the CSU study area in Ft. Collins. The disease was RECOGNIZED there first, but that really doesnt prove that it started there.
But, for the sake of arguement, lets assume that it did start in what is basially a "game farm" in Ft. Collins in the 1960's.
To me, thats even more proof, and more reason NOT to allow any more game farms. If the disease started in a game farm, whats stopping it from starting in game farms everywhere they're found? Not much, and because places like MT have ONLY found CWD on game farms, I'd have to make the logical assumption that CWD is a result of penning up elk. What other assumption can you make?
If you believe the Ft. Collins Research area was the ONLY source of CWD, you'd also think that every domestic elk that has it could be traced back to the original infected herd in Ft. Collins. There has to be documentation of where the domestic herds came from (oh, thats right, the record keeping is so PISS POOR with the elk farms I guess that isnt true), apparently they ALL came form ancestors of the herd in Ft. Collins. True?
Either that or theres some poaching assed elk farmers out there taking infected elk out of the wild to bolster their herds. So, which is it? Are all elk infected with CWD direct decendants of the original herd, are elk farmers poaching wild elk infected by the original herds, or do game farms actually self-propogate CWD?
I'd have to say the latter of those 3 options.
Tom
New member
Didn't it turn up out in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico now that everyone is monitoring for it? Cases like that lend support to the natural occurence of it. Lots of other diseases kill more animals, so its kind of over rated too it seems.
I heard about this avian chicken virus on the radio this morning. They're culling chickens in Asia, 10 million in Thailand slaughtered, 3 million in Viet Nam, so far. Its killed 5 children, this chicken feces disease, that's the speculation for how its spread. Moosie can use this to support the free the chickens movement, eh.
I heard about this avian chicken virus on the radio this morning. They're culling chickens in Asia, 10 million in Thailand slaughtered, 3 million in Viet Nam, so far. Its killed 5 children, this chicken feces disease, that's the speculation for how its spread. Moosie can use this to support the free the chickens movement, eh.
Birds are notorius for being carriers of disease and are just a really filthy animal overall. One connection that I can see between chickens and game farm elk are high population densities being kept in small areas where there is easy transmission from animal to animal.
elkfarmer has it correct. I grew up hunting the Ft. Collins area and have heard this off and on since I first started hunting it. Heck they used to have sign up that said if your deer looks sick to call them. I can remember that 10-15 yrs ago. I read a couple of different articles like the ones elkfarmer quotes that state the exact same thing. Sheep with scrappie in a pen, then deer in the same pen contracted it and then were released back into the wild. Also some of you know Deerking and he knows lots about this too. Its funny to me that at one time it was fairly common to know about the Ft. collins deal, but now so much has been written about it and the dow obviously is trying to cover their butts that now nobody wants to fess up.. Funny how just recently they want to eradicate deer and elk herds with it, but up until the last 4-5yrs they could care less..
BuzzH
Well-known member
Boman, I dont believe that elkfarmer, or anyone else has proved anything about where CWD came from.
This is a quote from the article above provided by Elkfarmer:
"CWD was first observed in 1967 in a Colorado Division of Wildlife deer research herd. It may have started there or in the wild deer herds nearby, where animals were captured to stock the research facility. Infected animals may have been released into the wild."
It may have started there? They may have been released into the wild?
I find it all but IMPOSSIBLE to believe that every case of CWD in the entire country originally came from the facility at Ft. Collins.
Its only been the last couple of years that most states are even starting to monitor for it. Funny how once they start to look, they find it.
Until I see some damn convincing evidence, and I'm not talking about "might haves" or "possibly", I believe that CWD is simply a function of too many animals living in too small an area...just like conditions found on game farms or areas with high populations of elk/deer (winter range conditions and populations over carrying capacity).
I also think that CWD is NOT spreading that much, if at all. The rates of infection in wild herds found in WY and CO have not changed hardly at all since CWD was first discovered in the 60's. If it was spreading fast enough to find its way to Wisconsin, Saskatchewan, Montana, New Mexico etc. one would think the infection rates would be increasing like wild-fire in the herds around Ft. Collins. The fact is, they arent. I confirmed this information with a Wyoming Wildlife Biologist who worked on CWD for his masters at CSU.
Theres too much contradiction in where its been found and how OFTEN its found in domestic herds for me to believe that the source is limited to just one research facility in Ft. Collins.
This is a quote from the article above provided by Elkfarmer:
"CWD was first observed in 1967 in a Colorado Division of Wildlife deer research herd. It may have started there or in the wild deer herds nearby, where animals were captured to stock the research facility. Infected animals may have been released into the wild."
It may have started there? They may have been released into the wild?
I find it all but IMPOSSIBLE to believe that every case of CWD in the entire country originally came from the facility at Ft. Collins.
Its only been the last couple of years that most states are even starting to monitor for it. Funny how once they start to look, they find it.
Until I see some damn convincing evidence, and I'm not talking about "might haves" or "possibly", I believe that CWD is simply a function of too many animals living in too small an area...just like conditions found on game farms or areas with high populations of elk/deer (winter range conditions and populations over carrying capacity).
I also think that CWD is NOT spreading that much, if at all. The rates of infection in wild herds found in WY and CO have not changed hardly at all since CWD was first discovered in the 60's. If it was spreading fast enough to find its way to Wisconsin, Saskatchewan, Montana, New Mexico etc. one would think the infection rates would be increasing like wild-fire in the herds around Ft. Collins. The fact is, they arent. I confirmed this information with a Wyoming Wildlife Biologist who worked on CWD for his masters at CSU.
Theres too much contradiction in where its been found and how OFTEN its found in domestic herds for me to believe that the source is limited to just one research facility in Ft. Collins.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
elkf'r, no I do not hate the RMEF...why would you say that?
Actually I have been a member for at least 10 years. I don't think I'd be giving them money if I didn't think they were a great organization.
I don't understand why you want to blame the state of Colorado for CWD. Sure everybody likes to blame the government for everything, but really, like I said before, why does it even matter? That was over 30 years ago..I don't see what that has to do with anything, other than like Buzz said, it proves that penning elk/deer up is when CWD seems to start showing up.
I don't understand why you want to blame the state of Colorado for CWD. Sure everybody likes to blame the government for everything, but really, like I said before, why does it even matter? That was over 30 years ago..I don't see what that has to do with anything, other than like Buzz said, it proves that penning elk/deer up is when CWD seems to start showing up.
elkfarmer
New member
well washinton huntress, the GREAT RMEF capture, penned and then released animals into the wild in another state. that could have spread the disease, correct? they were not tested, right? and you helped fund it...
and here is the best part, i am on there side. i love the fact that Pa. has an elk season now because of RMEF. and the down side of it, NY shut them down because of this whole CWD thing, what a shame.
and no one is blaming the gov. it is the DOW that lied about it....
i can get more articles for you if you want but i am getting tired of proving myself right. in those other aticles there was names listed that don't belong to any "elk farming" foundations, look it up if you want.
and oh yea, they might have started it 30 yrs ago, but a few years ago when the first elk died on a farm from cwd they stood by and right away put all the blame on the farmers and how wrong it is, it took years for them to admit what they did.
and in one article it shows that less than 1% of elk and less than 3% of deer contact the disease. if anyone finds different stats on that i would like to see it. and if it is true, kill them all cause its an outbreak.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-28-2004 08:29: Message edited by: elkfarmer ]</font>
and here is the best part, i am on there side. i love the fact that Pa. has an elk season now because of RMEF. and the down side of it, NY shut them down because of this whole CWD thing, what a shame.
and no one is blaming the gov. it is the DOW that lied about it....
i can get more articles for you if you want but i am getting tired of proving myself right. in those other aticles there was names listed that don't belong to any "elk farming" foundations, look it up if you want.
and oh yea, they might have started it 30 yrs ago, but a few years ago when the first elk died on a farm from cwd they stood by and right away put all the blame on the farmers and how wrong it is, it took years for them to admit what they did.
and in one article it shows that less than 1% of elk and less than 3% of deer contact the disease. if anyone finds different stats on that i would like to see it. and if it is true, kill them all cause its an outbreak.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-28-2004 08:29: Message edited by: elkfarmer ]</font>
Tom
New member
I'm thinking blaming CWD, or its spread, on game farms is like shooting the messenger. The disease won't go away, even if all the game farms majically dissappeared. That's just where they found it, they didn't invent it. The animals in that pen were previously from the wild too and put in there to study. Have they ruled out it being the feed they gave them? I know they've restricted what can be put in a lot feed now, to get rid of high risk ingredients. WH, I think people care about finding out how the disease spreads so they can come up with a better treatment than killing every animal near it, so that's why they want to study the Co info. Scrapie spread to other animal species seems as good as any theory to me at this point, but I'm no disease expert.
Buzz,
I never said elkfarmer proved anything. I'm just saying from what I've read and experienced his story is correct for colorado. Also I never said Colorado is to blame for all CWD cases. I don't think that's true. I agree with everything you've said about game farms and animals living close together. My post was only about CO and CWD. My biggest problem is with the way Co has handled the problem.
I never said elkfarmer proved anything. I'm just saying from what I've read and experienced his story is correct for colorado. Also I never said Colorado is to blame for all CWD cases. I don't think that's true. I agree with everything you've said about game farms and animals living close together. My post was only about CO and CWD. My biggest problem is with the way Co has handled the problem.
I don't know why the state keeps screwing around with this guy. They didn't make deals with other ranchers, they went in and killed the elk. While they've been trying to work out a deal with this dufus, the largest elk herd in North America has been migrating back up to the high country, right past his fence.
Rancher, state near deal to kill, test elk for CWD
By Gary Gerhardt, Rocky Mountain News
May 22, 2004
At least 30 of the 200-plus elk on the Motherwell Ranch southeast of Craig would be killed and tested for chronic wasting disease under a plan being worked out by state agriculture officials.
"We have a preliminary agreement with the owner, Wes Adams, on testing for CWD at his ranch, but there still are a number of loose ends that need to be tied up before any animals are killed," Jim Miller, state Agriculture Department policy director, said Friday.
One of those loose ends is running the agreement by the state Division of Wildlife, a partner in CWD control.
"We can't comment on the agreement yet because we haven't seen the details of the plan," wildlife division spokesman Todd Malmsbury said.
Concern about the captive elk at the Motherwell Ranch sprang from the death in January of a bull that had been in a fight with another and tested positive for CWD.
The Motherwell Ranch gained notoriety in 2002 when its owners expanded the fenced-in area and two mule deer on the property were killed and tested positive for CWD - the first on the Western Slope.
It created enough concern that Gov. Bill Owens announced the news immediately and said he would name a committee to work on ways to keep the always fatal disease from spreading.
CWD eats holes in the brains of deer and elk. Although there is no proof that eating an infected animal causes human health problems, the state advises hunters against it.
Discovering CWD - known to exist in northeastern Colorado since the 1960s - in northwestern Colorado had a huge impact because many small communities rely on big game hunting for a sizable portion of their income.
As soon as the infected mule deer at the Motherwell Ranch were discovered others were killed and more cases of CWD were found outside the newly fenced area, but nothing inside.
After the diseased elk was found in January, agriculture and wildlife officials immediately called for the elimination of the entire herd and quarantined the ranch, meaning no live elk could enter or leave.
Adams, a Las Vegas construction contractor who couldn't be reached Friday for comment, balked when agriculture officials offered up to $2,850 for each of the 130 elk in his herd.
Adams raises bull elk that people pay to shoot. Many command $20,000 or more depending on their antler size.
Adams told agriculture officials he wanted $600,000 for his herd and $400,000 to reimburse him for a second fence - which serves as a buffer between captive elk and wild animals - around his property.
Agriculture officials said they didn't have the money, so Adams kept his herd with the provision that any animals that left the ranch would be dead and tested.
Miller said conversations with Adams in the past months led to an agreement to kill only a select number, 30 or so, both cows and bulls, rather than the whole herd.
The matter of how much money will be offered and whether Adams accepts is still up in the air.
If more animals test positive, Miller said, the state probably will call for eliminating the entire herd.
Tom Cox, president of the Colorado Elk Breeders Association, said, "I'm pleased they are looking at other options than just killing everything.
"We believe Wes' animal picked up the disease from infected wild animals outside his pens, but there's no way to prove it."
Rancher, state near deal to kill, test elk for CWD
By Gary Gerhardt, Rocky Mountain News
May 22, 2004
At least 30 of the 200-plus elk on the Motherwell Ranch southeast of Craig would be killed and tested for chronic wasting disease under a plan being worked out by state agriculture officials.
"We have a preliminary agreement with the owner, Wes Adams, on testing for CWD at his ranch, but there still are a number of loose ends that need to be tied up before any animals are killed," Jim Miller, state Agriculture Department policy director, said Friday.
One of those loose ends is running the agreement by the state Division of Wildlife, a partner in CWD control.
"We can't comment on the agreement yet because we haven't seen the details of the plan," wildlife division spokesman Todd Malmsbury said.
Concern about the captive elk at the Motherwell Ranch sprang from the death in January of a bull that had been in a fight with another and tested positive for CWD.
The Motherwell Ranch gained notoriety in 2002 when its owners expanded the fenced-in area and two mule deer on the property were killed and tested positive for CWD - the first on the Western Slope.
It created enough concern that Gov. Bill Owens announced the news immediately and said he would name a committee to work on ways to keep the always fatal disease from spreading.
CWD eats holes in the brains of deer and elk. Although there is no proof that eating an infected animal causes human health problems, the state advises hunters against it.
Discovering CWD - known to exist in northeastern Colorado since the 1960s - in northwestern Colorado had a huge impact because many small communities rely on big game hunting for a sizable portion of their income.
As soon as the infected mule deer at the Motherwell Ranch were discovered others were killed and more cases of CWD were found outside the newly fenced area, but nothing inside.
After the diseased elk was found in January, agriculture and wildlife officials immediately called for the elimination of the entire herd and quarantined the ranch, meaning no live elk could enter or leave.
Adams, a Las Vegas construction contractor who couldn't be reached Friday for comment, balked when agriculture officials offered up to $2,850 for each of the 130 elk in his herd.
Adams raises bull elk that people pay to shoot. Many command $20,000 or more depending on their antler size.
Adams told agriculture officials he wanted $600,000 for his herd and $400,000 to reimburse him for a second fence - which serves as a buffer between captive elk and wild animals - around his property.
Agriculture officials said they didn't have the money, so Adams kept his herd with the provision that any animals that left the ranch would be dead and tested.
Miller said conversations with Adams in the past months led to an agreement to kill only a select number, 30 or so, both cows and bulls, rather than the whole herd.
The matter of how much money will be offered and whether Adams accepts is still up in the air.
If more animals test positive, Miller said, the state probably will call for eliminating the entire herd.
Tom Cox, president of the Colorado Elk Breeders Association, said, "I'm pleased they are looking at other options than just killing everything.
"We believe Wes' animal picked up the disease from infected wild animals outside his pens, but there's no way to prove it."
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Why is it important?
Anybody have any ideas?
I see two herds every time I head up to Helena along I-15 early in the morning, late in the evening, there are some 150-200 head together, they are not there because it is a feed lot for them they are not there because they are in an enclosure they can't get out of. They alway's seem to be packed pretty tight together, right in the farmers fields. The place is called elk park, any one can go by and see them. I haven't seen or heard any of these tightly packed elk getting CWD, but I suppose they could be cariers and just haven't shown the signs.
What if, and I am just asking, this disease has alway's been here, what if it is just because we are actually able to see the effects so graphicaly because they are in captivity and can't hide from prying eyes... Yes of course it is a very serious illness, but the scientists still haven't come up with what caused this.
It makes it so easy to sit in judgement of others and pass on the worse to them even if it is all still only theory...
What I am wondering really is what gives any of us the right to pass judgement on any one else from theory alone... and who will pay the price if it is found in the future that these individuals that had to take it in the back end because of mob rule. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as no one points their fingers at the chicken little crowd and denounces their great wrongs they perpetrate on the American citizens every day...
I am not saying these guy's were right, but it isn't right to lump every one in the same boat just because of association...
What if, and I am just asking, this disease has alway's been here, what if it is just because we are actually able to see the effects so graphicaly because they are in captivity and can't hide from prying eyes... Yes of course it is a very serious illness, but the scientists still haven't come up with what caused this.
It makes it so easy to sit in judgement of others and pass on the worse to them even if it is all still only theory...
What I am wondering really is what gives any of us the right to pass judgement on any one else from theory alone... and who will pay the price if it is found in the future that these individuals that had to take it in the back end because of mob rule. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as no one points their fingers at the chicken little crowd and denounces their great wrongs they perpetrate on the American citizens every day...
I am not saying these guy's were right, but it isn't right to lump every one in the same boat just because of association...
Tom
New member
ELKCHSR, golly you may be one of the 49% who voted against I-143 with such reasonable thoughts as that.
Hey Oak, you know a white guy who committed a crime, they're all criminals? You know a preacher who commited a crime, they're all criminals? That's what that argument sounds like. Everybody in an association has something in common, but its not committing crimes for most associations. I guess associations like the KKK or Animal Liberation Front, whose purpose includes committing crimes are like that. Elk farm associations were not created to commit crimes though where they?
It seems pretty clear the importance would be so that we, the farmers, and the elk can benefit from their existence and activities and products and services, that's a basic way to see it and say it.
Hey Oak, you know a white guy who committed a crime, they're all criminals? You know a preacher who commited a crime, they're all criminals? That's what that argument sounds like. Everybody in an association has something in common, but its not committing crimes for most associations. I guess associations like the KKK or Animal Liberation Front, whose purpose includes committing crimes are like that. Elk farm associations were not created to commit crimes though where they?
It seems pretty clear the importance would be so that we, the farmers, and the elk can benefit from their existence and activities and products and services, that's a basic way to see it and say it.
Tom, you're not getting it. If the CEBA had come out and publicly denounced what the guy had done (failed to turn in brain samples from elk that died), I wouldn't be lumping them all together. They chose to defend him, and according to their website, he's not even a member! Does that make any sense to you?
Tom, how would you feel if TTHA or SCI defended a convicted poacher? Maybe lobbied for him to get his confiscated guns returned? If you were a member of the organization would you sit on your hands and let them do it, or would you speak up? I don't hear any CEBA members speaking up.
Oak
Tom, how would you feel if TTHA or SCI defended a convicted poacher? Maybe lobbied for him to get his confiscated guns returned? If you were a member of the organization would you sit on your hands and let them do it, or would you speak up? I don't hear any CEBA members speaking up.
Oak
Elkchsr said:
Why on earth would other elk farmers back him up? You said that I shouldn't "lump every one in the same boat just because of association." Well if the CEBA is backing him up even after he's blatently broken the law more than once, I'm lumping every member from that association in the same boat.
Oak
So is this guy wrong? If so, why protect him? I would think that all the other elk farmers in the state would be marching on the state capitol to get this herd depopulated if they really cared. This guy broke the laws he was required to follow as an elk rancher in CO (see bolded parts in the last story). CWD was proven to exist in his herd. The guy has refused to even take the precaution of double fencing his herd. And yet, you have the president of the Colorado Elk Breeders Assn. saying "I'm pleased they are looking at other options than just killing everything."
Why on earth would other elk farmers back him up? You said that I shouldn't "lump every one in the same boat just because of association." Well if the CEBA is backing him up even after he's blatently broken the law more than once, I'm lumping every member from that association in the same boat.
Oak
Tom
New member
Who lobbied for criminals? Nobody I know of. They might lobby for new laws, that's good. CEBA, I'll learn some more about them, see what they speak up on. I'd speak up, get the criminals, that's good, I see that.
