Can you talk me out of getting a GSP

[TWC]

This thread seems to be turning into a debate on the benefits of upland hunting with a GSP. I don’t think anyone will disagree they are well suited to that. However, the OP does around 40 days a year on ducks and 3 or 4 on pheasants. I don’t think anyone will disagree a lab is best suited for him.

 

[OntarioHunter]

This thread seems to be turning into a debate on the benefits of upland hunting with a GSP. I don’t think anyone will disagree they are well suited to that. However, the OP does around 40 days a year on ducks and 3 or 4 on pheasants. I don’t think anyone will disagree a lab is best suited for him.

True. But kinda sounds like he was maybe interested in devoting more time to pheasants ... which is understandable. I was a waterfowl junkie from the time I first started hunting fifty -six years ago. And I still love it. Then in 2008 when I returned to eastern Montana to work for the Park Service the lure of upland hunting bit me ... mostly out of neccessity; there wasn't much duck hunting in the area. Now I'm hooked on pheasants. Every fall since then I have returned to hunt them after the geese are gone here, usually for six weeks. And though I also have a pointing dog now, I have never stopped hunting with a Lab. The last several years Ellie has been my go to dog simply because roosters were so few and so spooky. It was mostly a waste of time hunting them with my little Fr Britt. She works close (for a pointer) but not close enough. I was hoping with the numbers being up this year she would see more action but the early lingering snow screwed that up. Too cold and too hard on her feet. I saw a few tourists out with GSPs and they had to give it up.

So in my extensive experience I think a Lab will suit this fella just fine. They are versatile enough to handle anything Montana can throw at them ... bird species, terrain, and weather. And they pretty much train themselves. Extremely pliable and ready to please. From what I'm reading here, that is often not a GSP attribute. If hunting over a pointing dog is something he'd like to experience, I'd advise selecting a Lab that's bred to do it.

 

[corndog1]

True. But kinda sounds like he was maybe interested in devoting more time to pheasants ... which is understandable. I was a waterfowl junkie from the time I first started hunting fifty -six years ago. And I still love it. Then in 2008 when I returned to eastern Montana to work for the Park Service the lure of upland hunting bit me ... mostly out of neccessity; there wasn't much duck hunting in the area. Now I'm hooked on pheasants. Every fall since then I have returned to hunt them after the geese are gone here, usually for six weeks. And though I also have a pointing dog now, I have never stopped hunting with a Lab. The last several years Ellie has been my go to dog simply because roosters were so few and so spooky. It was mostly a waste of time hunting them with my little Fr Britt. She works close (for a pointer) but not close enough. I was hoping with the numbers being up this year she would see more action but the early lingering snow screwed that up. Too cold and too hard on her feet. I saw a few tourists out with GSPs and they had to give it up.

So in my extensive experience I think a Lab will suit this fella just fine. They are versatile enough to handle anything Montana can throw at them ... bird species, terrain, and weather. And they pretty much train themselves. Extremely pliable and ready to please. From what I'm reading here, that is often not a GSP attribute. If hunting over a pointing dog is something he'd like to experience, I'd advise selecting a Lab that's bred to do it.

Some good thoughts I have decided to go with a lab. And your right on when you say there aren't many ducks in eastern mt I would advise folks to not go duck hunting out there.

 

[Frenchy]

If its a pointing dog that can retrieve that the OP wants....I would again suggest a Griffon or Draht. I have yet to see one that I wouldn't hunt with in both upland and waterfowl conditions. I've had one lab, and he was a machine on waterfowl. He was okay on upland. Loved him dearly, but....I'm not a lab guy. Maybe I just like to be different, but there are lots of quality hunting dog breeds out there, and its ok to be a bit different.

 

[OntarioHunter]

If its a pointing dog that can retrieve that the OP wants....I would again suggest a Griffon or Draht. I have yet to see one that I wouldn't hunt with in both upland and waterfowl conditions. I've had one lab, and he was a machine on waterfowl. He was okay on upland. Loved him dearly, but....I'm not a lab guy. Maybe I just like to be different, but there are lots of quality hunting dog breeds out there, and its ok to be a bit different.

Yes, it is okay to be different. I tried to be but ultimately could not escape the reality of who I am. After my wife and son died ten years ago I was in pretty bad shape. Decided I needed another dog to keep me distracted. Already had two great black Labs so I was thinking of something new. A French Brittany breeder in Minnesota found another in ND who had someone back out on a pup in a litter that was about ready (turns out the MN breeder was so keen to help because she had just lost her son to suicide). Fast forward four years when, after losing one Lab to kidney disease, I was again looking for a dog (my other Lab had just come up lame ... turned out only temporarily). I phoned the Fr Britt breeder to ask his opinion about "versatile" small Munsterlander. "I thought you were a Lab man, Pat." Yeah, but trying something different worked so well with Puppy, I thought I'd try again. "Too bad. I bred my big Lab to a local bitch and she's about to welp. Two other litters turned out great. And you can't beat the price." Yeah, I'll think about it. Next day I got an email: "Pups born today and you're in for a female." And that was that.

The pricetag of "something different" can be a deterrent for many folks (fortunately I'm in a position where it's not a factor). There are certainly no shortage of Lab breeders and probably almost as many GSP to keep the price of those pups competitive, but when you get into the exotic breeds things get real pricey. While I have the money, I can certainly think of better ways to spend it than on luxury toys when cheaper tools will do the job just as well. My Fr Britt pup cost almost as much as a round trip ticket to Alaska ... and she was a bargain for that breed! Lab Ellie was half the price ... and she's the most expensive of all the other five Labs I've owned.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Some good thoughts I have decided to go with a lab. And your right on when you say there aren't many ducks in eastern mt I would advise folks to not go duck hunting out there.

PM me if you're interested in some places in north central MT that have good hunting for both waterfowl and uplands. I never buy waterfowl stamps when in Montana because I usually get all of that I want here, but I sure see a lot of ducks and geese while I'm there chasing pheasants.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I’ve largely stayed out of this thread because I have no interest in convincing anyone to buy anything. I always recommend people gather facts and use those to make the best decision for their circumstances. Unfortunately some people seem to worry more about making sure others agree with them than presenting facts.

A dog with a poor search pattern will miss birds regardless of whether they are searching 50 yards in front of you or 400. The only benefit then is the bird may flush closer and you get a shot. Personally I’d rather have a dog that effectively searches.

Also, a well bred dog that works in cooperation with its owner will adjust its range based on cover. There is no reason for a pointing dog to be out more than 50 to 75 yards in heavy cover, and maybe less. Any owner that allows more than that is not very bright. Any dog that won’t work within that doesn’t have much cooperation built in. Some folks can’t seem to have an intelligent conversation about dogs and understand range is a variable and not a constant.

For the hunting the OP describes I could take a Draht and that situation would be absolutely dynamite. If he’s more comfortable with a lab, great. It’s his money. Hopefully he does his due diligence and researches the lineage well so he doesn’t become a victim of breeders who are too lazy to test for health disorders and such.

No, late season birds don’t always hold well for pointing dogs. This is a given. There are methods and tactics you can use to mitigate this to a certain extent.

Also, not every dog “needs” to be run every day to be tolerable in the house. My Draht is one of the easiest house dogs I’ve ever had, as well as one of the friendliest and most affectionate. That said, do your dog a favor and take him or her for a walk and/or run daily, and spend 10 minutes a day training them. It’s good for both of you.

If I had the choice between a $500 lab and a $1500 Drahthaar, I’ll take the Draht any day of the week. In fact, I’ll take two. They fit what I do to a “T”. Ultimately, that’s your goal is to find what fits you, and realize it can be a question with different answers. Implying there is only one right answer is myopic.

 

[Mule man]

I have both Lab and GWP, Both are laying in front of the fire place right now. I find the labs place is in the pheasant field or duck blind. The GWP is much better for chuckar as they have more stamina and are light on there feet while taking a lot less water. I no the pointers can be wired for sound but I have found if you do your part with some corrective discipline in the up bringing they can be well mannered as well. Obedience training and loving care is a must for all breeds..........my lousy .002

 

[OntarioHunter]

I’ve largely stayed out of this thread because I have no interest in convincing anyone to buy anything. I always recommend people gather facts and use those to make the best decision for their circumstances. Unfortunately some people seem to worry more about making sure others agree with them than presenting facts.

A dog with a poor search pattern will miss birds regardless of whether they are searching 50 yards in front of you or 400. The only benefit then is the bird may flush closer and you get a shot. Personally I’d rather have a dog that effectively searches.

Also, a well bred dog that works in cooperation with its owner will adjust its range based on cover. There is no reason for a pointing dog to be out more than 50 to 75 yards in heavy cover, and maybe less. Any owner that allows more than that is not very bright. Any dog that won’t work within that doesn’t have much cooperation built in. Some folks can’t seem to have an intelligent conversation about dogs and understand range is a variable and not a constant.

For the hunting the OP describes I could take a Draht and that situation would be absolutely dynamite. If he’s more comfortable with a lab, great. It’s his money. Hopefully he does his due diligence and researches the lineage well so he doesn’t become a victim of breeders who are too lazy to test for health disorders and such.

No, late season birds don’t always hold well for pointing dogs. This is a given. There are methods and tactics you can use to mitigate this to a certain extent.

Also, not every dog “needs” to be run every day to be tolerable in the house. My Draht is one of the easiest house dogs I’ve ever had, as well as one of the friendliest and most affectionate. That said, do your dog a favor and take him or her for a walk and/or run daily, and spend 10 minutes a day training them. It’s good for both of you.

If I had the choice between a $500 lab and a $1500 Drahthaar, I’ll take the Draht any day of the week. In fact, I’ll take two. They fit what I do to a “T”. Ultimately, that’s your goal is to find what fits you, and realize it can be a question with different answers. Implying there is only one right answer is myopic.

Always good to hear from someone with all the "facts" who's not trying to persuade anyone.

Nothing about hunting dogs, or anything else in this world, is "a constant." But we are talking generalities when discussing different breeds ... because we have to. I have seen Labs that could not be trained to stay off the table or out of the garbage. I have seen more than one that was mean. But those were exceptions. I have seen few (actually no) GSPs that would stay within range without electronics ... and a couple that wouldn't stay in the same zipcode even while wearing e-collars. I'm reading a lot of confirmation here so that would seem to say something in general about the breed. Personally, I think anyone who goes into the field with an e-collar on his Lab is either into expensive trendy decorations or doesn't know the first thing about working with a dog. How many Labs do you see wearing electronics vs pointing dogs? Must be a reason for that.

 

[Mainewoods]

I had to put my 13 year old chessie down in October, and we are getting a new pup on January 23rd. For waterfowl, some upland, and just a general fantastic dog, I can’t imagine a better companion than a CBR, but I’m definitely a bit bias for sure.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Always good to hear from someone with all the "facts" who's not trying to persuade anyone.

Mission accomplished! He says we sold him on a Lab. I'm still trying to convince him to get a pair of them.

Your shameless perversion of facts in order to be right is directly one of the parts of this thread I was addressing.

 

[Runnin_Chupacabra]

I've actually been having the same predicament lately and do similar hunting, about 75/25 waterfowl/upland. My lady decided she wants a GSP and I want a lab for ducks so we'll each prob buy one on our own over time but could get pricey. I've been reminded here on HT when choosing a breed keep in mind your lifestyle outside of hunting as well (if there is such thing ). Given our lifestyle being runners, running 40-50 miles a week, the GSP fits in great for our runs but having a lab in for duck hunting every weekend during duck season is something of importance for myself.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Your shameless perversion of facts in order to be right is directly one of the parts of this thread I was addressing.

Always important to hear from the expert judge of perversion. I guess expensive exotic guns and dogs are not for everyone. Sorry you weren't convincing enough. Don't take it so personally.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I had to put my 13 year old chessie down in October, and we are getting a new pup on January 23rd. For waterfowl, some upland, and just a general fantastic dog, I can’t imagine a better companion than a CBR, but I’m definitely a bit bias for sure.

There's a breed that formerly was notorious for being ornery and hard-headed. Breeders have sure turned it around! Generally the ones I have seen the last thirty years have been great family dogs and hunters. Much better disposition.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Always important to hear from the expert judge of perversion. I guess expensive exotic guns and dogs are not for everyone. Sorry you weren't convincing enough.

If you think the Drahthaar is an exotic, you are just demonstrating your misunderstanding of the breed. It was developed for hunters who wished to used their dog for a variety of field situations, but couldn’t afford dedicated dogs.

In Germany, it was not until the early ~1800’s that this final vestige of feudalism was abandoned, and much of the land became public domain. As a result, the affluent middle class, which was emerging from the Industrial Revolution, could now purchase rights to participate in the “noble” sport of hunting.

While the nobility had the space and resources to maintain Large kennels, even successful middle classmen lived in cramped quarters. In addition, the expense of hunting would create the incentive to collect a “mixed bag”. For these reasons, an immediate need arose for an easily domesticated all-purpose hunting dog.

 

[Mainewoods]

There's a breed that formerly was notorious for being ornery and hard-headed. Breeders have sure turned it around! Generally the ones I have seen the last thirty years have been great family dogs and hunters. Much better disposition.

Oh, they are still hard headed as a piece of granite, hahaha, they kept that trait. Kenai was an awesome waterfowler, and I trained him myself when I was single and before kids. When my daughter was born he was just a gentle giant with her, but I was confident that when I traveled for work or play, my home and family was well protected.
It has been a quiet couple of months for us and we are so ready for the shit-show that comes with a new puppy in the house of any sporting breed!

 

[OntarioHunter]

If you think the Drahthaar is an exotic, you are just demonstrating your misunderstanding of the breed. It was developed for hunters who wished to used their dog for a variety of field situations, but couldn’t afford dedicated dogs.

Demonstrating my misunderstanding? Well, let's see ... The breed was developed by a German baron for exclusive use and breeding of German nobility. The breed is a rather late arrival on the US hunting/breeding scene. That makes it rather "exotic" in my book. Drahthaar were bred to go after whatever game happened to present itself. This is the German hunting tradition: kill everything you can any time you can ... because you are hunting your estate and the game belongs to you. Afforability of one dog vs several would not seem to be a factor for landed aristocrats. What I find interesting is that, according to the US club's website, they were/are selectively bred to dispatch game before retreiving it ... which no doubt would be essential for "hunting" "sharp" animals (e.g. fox and badger). Personally, I am not an admirer of dogs that tear up crippled birds. But to each his own.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Personally, I am not an admirer of dogs that tear up crippled birds.

They don’t, but do carry on.

 

[OntarioHunter]

They don’t, but do carry on.

Better read the US Drhathaar club's website. According to them killing game before retreiving is a requisite trait for breeding in Germany. And the Germans are pretty strict about selectively breeding for specific traits to differentiate from GWP breed. But maybe I'm reading it wrong?

 

[OntarioHunter]

Oh, they are still hard headed as a piece of granite, hahaha, they kept that trait. Kenai was an awesome waterfowler, and I trained him myself when I was single and before kids. When my daughter was born he was just a gentle giant with her, but I was confident that when I traveled for work or play, my home and family was well protected.
It has been a quiet couple of months for us and we are so ready for the shit-show that comes with a new puppy in the house of any sporting breed!

All the dogs I have seen were females. Might want to make that a consideration this go round.