And the Hits just keep on coming....WY now.

[BuzzH]

Buzz, what I hear from you, is that because NRs are complaining, you're ready to just say screw 'em. Am I correct in that your point is that we should still be grateful for what we still have?

I don't disagree with that but...

Just to play devil's advocate, when the next rape and pillage administration comes to the white house, how should I look at their attempts to develop every inch of the red desert? Should I just say screw 'em?

You say what you want and look at them how you want...you make your decisions alone, you live with them alone.

There is no reason why Wyoming Residents should be giving up more than 10% of our tags to NR hunters, none.

A little too late on the raping and pillaging of a lot of the red desert...by about 20-30 years.

 

[Edwin]

I've always looked at limited quota tags as 'once in a lifetime' for my non resident apps. But when 'once in a lifetime' mathematically starts to look like 'never in a lifetime' it starts to sting when you've invested so much. Why stop at 90/10? Gonna need to auction off a few more tags to cover the budget when 75,000 people stop buying a $60 elk point.

 

[D_Walt]

Emotions definitely run high on this one, obviously it’s more than an elk or deer, for many it is their hopes and dreams. But the fact of the matter is wildlife populations aren’t static, human populations aren’t static, and hunter numbers aren’t static. Things change and the pendulum is swinging away from NR opportunities throughout the west due to multiple reasons. But there is still, and will continue to be, significant hunting opportunities for the western public land DIY hunter. It just might not be 6 tags in four states every year.

If you’re a NR western DIY hunter, it is time to evaluate your long term strategy and make adjustments. I understand the frustration about preference points becoming less valuable but there never has been any guarantee associated with accumulating points.

If I was a Wyoming resident I would certainly be in favor of this bill, as a non resident I’m hoping it doesn’t pass. But I think it is inevitable that eventually this will come to fruition in Wyoming and eventually something similar in CO.
Yes, I think diminished opportunity will likely lead to apathy towards public land issues for those who drop out of the point chase and western big game hunting but it will not create animosity towards it as some have implied.

For me, this whole issue makes me think perhaps I should become more involved in supporting or participating in organizations that actively try to improve/conserve habitat with the goal of putting more animals on the hill. Growing the pie is the only real way to combat this problem - and that may not even be feasible in many cases.

Ultimately , the Wyoming legislature needs to do what is best for the people of Wyoming, and if the people of Wyoming think they do a crap job at it then the people of Wyoming need to vote for new reps.

 

[BuzzH]

I've always looked at limited quota tags as 'once in a lifetime' for my non resident apps. But when 'once in a lifetime' mathematically starts to look like 'never in a lifetime' it starts to sting when you've invested so much.

There's plenty of Resident hunters in the same boat because of current NR allocations...ever given a thought to them?

Beings how they live here...I'm inclined to believe they've invested a bit more than a preference point fee.

 

[HONEYBADGER]

Not really. No outfitter set asides and $8 million in increased revenue...and wayyy more bill sponsors including Harshman.

A very similar bill was one vote away from making it out of committee about 5 years ago.

No outfitter set asides will be the death of this bill.....watch it happen.

 

[BuzzH]

No outfitter set asides will be the death of this bill.....watch it happen.

It died last year with outfitter set asides....

 

[bayoublaster7527]

You're clueless....Residents didn't put a preference point system in place for NR's.

Get your "facts" straight.

I’m confused by this. So non-residents put in place the current preference point system? How did they accomplish this? Do non-residents make up the legislature and GF commission? Surely someone voted on this at some point, in some capacity and non-residents can’t vote. I assume most WY outfitters are residents and they pushed for a PP system for predictability with regard to booking.

Maybe I’m just clueless too....

Most WY residents reference that the 90/10 split is in keeping with many other western states and that is fair. However, they want to retain or just ignore the restrictions on wilderness areas for DIY non-resident hunters. That restriction is NOT in keeping with any other western state, in fact it only exists in the lower 48 in WY.

 

[Edwin]

There's plenty of Resident hunters in the same boat because of current NR allocations...ever given a thought to them?

Beings how they live here...I'm inclined to believe they've invested a bit more than a preference point fee.

I want 1 elk tag in 30 years. And you want 1 elk tag every year for 30 years running. Tell me more about stealing all your opportunities. All of our 4 figure investments are worth jack and it puts a smile on your face.

 

[Deleted member 40728]

Let me start by saying I do not live in a western state. I live in Pennsylvania which has its own elk and elk draw each year. There is no ratio of tag allocation between R vs NR. The application process is dirt cheap and everyone has the same chance which is super low. No set aside amount specifically for NR. There could theoretically be a year that more NR get tags than R though I highly doubt it.
I am perfectly fine with that setup even though I’m a resident here. I feel anyone should have the opportunity to chase elk here even if it means I never will.
I do understand the point of view of some saying residents should be the benefactor and not so much anyone else but I guess I don’t see it that way. I can honestly say I wish some western states handled their LE tags the same way PA handles there’s, no allocation ratio. Residents of some western states wouldn’t be stuck on the sidelines each year watching since they can still buy otc tags in their state and chase elk.
Let’s be realistic, most hunters aren’t looking to come out west to eat lunch a land return home. The opportunity is what takes us there. Just like most hunters on this forum who are west of the Mississippi will not be coming to PA to spend $ unless they draw that OIL elk tag. I think it is a good way to attract new hunters.
Im not trying to ruffle any feathers, I’m simply stating my opinion on LE allocation ratios. It is a rare opportunity to experience something that is once in a lifetime and would nice to keep some of it that way.

 

[IsThisHeaven?]

I believe Wyoming can do whatever it wants with its season structures and tag allocations. States should always look out for the residents of the state first. If I was a resident of Wyoming I would be in full support of this bill as it is written.

I live in Iowa. I moved here in part to hunt deer, turkey and pheasants. We have significant limitations on NR any-sex whitetail tags, so in that regard, we have some similarities with what is going on in Wyoming and throughout the West. Many on here do not value whitetail tags and may be unfamiliar, but there is a ton of NR demand here. We have very little public land, but with low NR numbers, you can have quality hunting on public land. We are bombarded every year with legislation to increase NR tag numbers, outfitter quotas, etc., just like you're seeing in many Western states. I adimently oppose all of this legislation and work with local conservation groups and my local lawmakers to make sure these bills are defeated. Long winded way of saying I totally understand Wyoming residents' perspectives. I also understand the strong feelings Wyoming residents have. When you have to deal with this stuff every year it really gets old. Every year private landowners/outfitters want more. Nonresidents always want more. Then in the fall the woods are full of people, pushing out the locals.

I personally have a few deer and antelope points in Wyoming. If I were to have to make the decision today I would not be buying points anymore and would not hunt the state again. Maybe that will change. The value of the points I have will be decreased significantly and the cost is prohibitive for me. That's fine. That's the risk I took getting into the game. I have been losing interest in hunting the West, and Wyoming specifically, so this just escalates that slide.

I have been following this and similar topics on this and other forums. It is really too bad it gets so bad between NR and R when mostly we have common goals. There is lots of calling one side or the other selfish. It appears to me, and this is just my opinion, both sides are being selfish. To call one group or another selfish in this seems like you have the blinders on and are rooting for your team. If we are all honest, there is selfishness on both sides. When I work with my local lawmakers to restrict NR tags I am acting selfishly.

I am not nearly as familiar with Western states seasons, tags, drawings, etc. as probably everyone else on this site so this may be a dumb question. But it seems to me I hear a lot of "every other Western state does this so Wyoming is just following suit." Again, applying my simple math it looks like Wyoming cut NR tags and increased the NR price to make up the money.

What happens when the first state sees it can cut its NR tags to 7.5% or even 5%, then increase prices again to make up the money? Do the rest do what Wyoming is doing and all fall in line using "other states do it so we are?"

The answer could be yes, and that's fine with me. I am genuinely curious and have no real dog in the race.

 

[ccc23454]

I am selfish i would like to draw a LE tag(never have) other than antelope! I live in a unique part of state with few general areas so i get to drive by thousands of elk to go hunting cause i cant draw a tag near my house. I want to hunt deer where i cut my christmas tree every year but as a resident i have a 2.5% odds, and NR can draw with 12 pref points. I will not even get into big4 residents inability to draw those mainly basedd on population decreases. But until i can draw a tag where i live before a NR can your crazy to think i will not fight for it...wouldnt you? 90/10 has become a standard, cost is currently unbelievable but at $2200 elk tags would sell out so stop complaining cause this is a direct result of your demand. I dont like changing rules midgame but i am still going to cheer for the home team when they do!

Currently: Sitting on my back porch typing this drinking my morning coffee glasing elk i cant hunt and looking at muleys seems i never will...

 

[Deleted member 18333]

What happens when the first state sees it can cut its NR tags to 7.5% or even 5%, then increase prices again to make up the money? Do the rest do what Wyoming is doing and all fall in line using "other states do it so we are?"

Good questions. I think the answer to the first is given enough time, States will inevitably cut NR tag allocations even further for some species and units. I think there is little, if not no, data to say otherwise. I also think prices will continue to go up. I think a change in how CO allocates NR elk licenses is inevitable. I think that will be the next big shoe to fall. When, not sure, but all of these changes are far more likely to happen than not.

 

[jabber]

I am selfish i would like to draw a LE tag other than antelope(never have)! I live in a unique part of state with few general areas so i get to drive by thousands of elk to go hunting cause i cant draw a tag near my house. I want to hunt deer where i cut my christmas tree every year but as a resident i have a 2.5% odds, and NR can draw with 12 pref points. I will not even get into big4 residents inability to draw those mainly basedd on population decreases. But until i can draw a tag where i live before a NR can your crazy to think i will not fight for it...wouldnt you? 90/10 has become a standard, cost is currently unbelievable but at $2200 elk tags would sell out so stop complaining cause this is a direct result of your demand. I dont like changing rules midgame but i am still going to cheer for the home team when they do!

With the changes proposed, what will your odds of drawing the deer tag you want be increased to?

 

[BrentD]

I am selfish i would like to draw a LE tag other than antelope(never have)! I live in a unique part of state with few general areas so i get to drive by thousands of elk to go hunting cause i cant draw a tag near my house. I want to hunt deer where i cut my christmas tree every year but as a resident i have a 2.5% odds, and NR can draw with 12 pref points. I will not even get into big4 residents inability to draw those mainly basedd on population decreases. But until i can draw a tag where i live before a NR can your crazy to think i will not fight for it...wouldnt you? 90/10 has become a standard, cost is currently unbelievable but at $2200 elk tags would sell out so stop complaining cause this is a direct result of your demand. I dont like changing rules midgame but i am still going to cheer for the home team when they do!

So just who owns the lands that the "home team" wants to hunt? The "home" team might include more than you think. What if the landowner started controlling access a little more stiffly. Maybe a $2200 trespass fee to hunt those lands, eh?

To every action, there is a reaction. And very few free lunches.

 

[Buffs35]

i hate to say it, but as my ability to get tags outside of my own state is continually looking to be diminished everywhere i look, i'm gonna keep pressing my own state and hoping they diminish NR opportunity too.

if my ability to get tags elsewhere keeps going down, i want my resident experience to at least stay status quo, if not get better - though in the meantime i don't have high hopes for that.

Colorado doesn't care about resident hunters.

 

[JM77]

I’m confused by this. So non-residents put in place the current preference point system? How did they accomplish this? Do non-residents make up the legislature and GF commission? Surely someone voted on this at some point, in some capacity and non-residents can’t vote. I assume most WY outfitters are residents and they pushed for a PP system for predictability with regard to booking.

Maybe I’m just clueless too....

Most WY residents reference that the 90/10 split is in keeping with many other western states and that is fair. However, they want to retain or just ignore the restrictions on wilderness areas for DIY non-resident hunters. That restriction is NOT in keeping with any other western state, in fact it only exists in the lower 48 in WY.

Yes, it was nonresidents that put in place the current pp system through a survey done by the G&F. It was the support of nonresidents in that survey that pushed it through.

As far as the wilderness guide law, speak to the outfitters about that one. This has been stated a multitude of times on this forum alone, resident hunters had nothing to do with that one and it would have to be changed through legislation.

 

[Deleted member 40728]

Currently: Sitting on my back porch typing this drinking my morning coffee glasing elk i cant hunt and looking at muleys seems i never will...

I see elk each time I drive through Potter county in my home state and understand I will most likely never get to hunt them.
Maybe eventually a bill will get proposed that you have to be a resident of that county/gmu in order to be eligible to draw the tags. Then it will no longer be a R vs NR dispute but a dispute between residents of the state alone.

 

[Deleted member 40728]

Maybe someday we can even get to the point of only being in draw competition with the 100-150 people within the township of a given unit alone. That will be the good days.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

Yes, it was nonresidents that put in place the current pp system through a survey done by the G&F. It was the support of nonresidents in that survey that pushed it through.

As far as the wilderness guide law, speak to the outfitters about that one. This has been stated a multitude of times on this forum alone, resident hunters had nothing to do with that one and it would have to be changed through legislation.

I understand that NR may have supported it but it takes residents to actually put it in place once again. As stated many times in this forum, residents through their elected officials get to make decisions on the management of game in their state, not non-residents regardless of a survey.

I understand that it has been discussed many times, I was just drawing the parallel between the resident “90/10 is the norm in the west” stance when the wilderness guide law is anything but the norm. I understand outfitters pushed for the law but it takes the consent of the resident’s elected officials to pass it. So DIY non-resident hunters should petition outfitters to have the wilderness guide law changed? I don’t see that working as the law clearly benefits outfitters.

 

[3darcher2]

Thanks for posting this WapitiBob

I guess I am guilty of having too much work and not enough time to keep up with everything, but I watched these whole videos so went to read the bill. Do you think the senator thinks that WY is going to sell as many pronghorn tags for $600 as they do now? And close to $700 for deer tags for a Black Hills whitetail? Comparing the prices tags of states that have limited populations with high trophy potential to WY, which is blessed with generally strong populations providing opportunity with some trophy potential to something like NV elk is really a stretch to me. I can tell you that to me anyway, a general WY elk tag might be a good tag, but at $1100 compared to a 34 NM or even a 6A AZ tag for $800 or so, it's third on that list any day. I feel like this "market pricing" was really cherry picking.

Am I way off base? Am I missing something?

Yeah, that's a fair assumption...it may increase NR pressure on a few general areas.

However, Wyoming general areas are under opportunity management which is about 17-25 bulls per 100 cows post harvest.

The only way things would change is if a particular general unit started getting enough additional pressure to drop below 17 bulls per 100 cows. When that happens is spikes are excluded from harvest and/or season length is shortened.

For the most part our general areas are meeting or exceeding the post harvest bull to cow ratio's.

I believe with the large number of general areas, the pressure is spread out pretty well.

Buzz made my point here which no one else replied on. Comparing an opportunity tag WY general unit tag value to the value of a premium LE tag in other states to come up with an $1100 value is disingenuous. Perhaps WY should have looked at doing something similar to NM with a 2 layer tag price for LE vs General for NR. I'd argue the same thing for eastern WY antelope, especially. The units with no public land and a zillion licenses are going to be a hard sell at $600 in my mind.

You might not see this for a year or three, but certainly, my next WY antelope tag will be my last at $600 for an opportunity hunt. Same for elk. I'll burn my points and bite the bullet at some point soon, but I don't see me (or a lot of guys) plopping down $60 a year for elk PPs every year to eventually get drawn for an $1100 opportunity hunt. I'm fairly certain that's not calculated into this $8M increase. Of course just like anyone on this thread, I'm a data point of one.