And the Hits just keep on coming....WY now.

[Thomas11]

Wyoming has wayyyyyy more applicants applying for elk on the special fee than are available, which is over $1100 or slightly more...including general tags that take 1 or 2 points to draw.

Tell me again that nr elk tags aren't worth 1100....

I didn’t say it is worth it or not. I’d prolly pay 2k for an elk tag somewhere. It doesn’t make it right just because they can do it. We have no choice if we want to hunt but to pay the price. But don’t sit here and say it’s what other states charge because that is an all out lie. They know they can charge the huge price increase and ppl will have no choice but to pay

 

[Shangobango]

I can tell you what annoys me enough to consider contacting the committee in support of this: Getting an unsolicited e-mail from SNS/Sy Gilliland about killing the bill with zero actual information in it (and how do they have my personal e-mail address), and the victim complex of the squeakiest wheels on here.

That email annoyed the hell out of me. They had to have gotten my email through WGFD.

As to your point about the victim complex...I hope I don't fall into that camp. I don't want to.

I can't say that my opposition to the changes are completely unselfish. My opposition is not completely selfish either though. My concerns are much broader than the potential devaluing of my preference points in WY and it being more difficult for me to draw the LE deer and pronghorn tags I have my eye on.

Like I have said before, the State of Wyoming has the right to manage access to their wildlife however they see fit.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

That email annoyed the hell out of me. They had to have gotten my email through WGFD.

As to your point about the victim complex...I hope I don't fall into that camp. I don't want to.

I can't say that my opposition to the changes are completely unselfish. My opposition is not completely selfish either though. My concerns are much broader than the potential devaluing of my preference points in WY and it being more difficult for me to draw the LE deer and pronghorn tags I have my eye on.

Like I have said before, the State of Wyoming has the right to manage access to their wildlife however they see fit.

Not that my opinion about person xyz's response matters anyway, but no not thinking of you at all. I've appreciated your discussion points.

 

[BuzzH]

I didn’t say it is worth it or not. I’d prolly pay 2k for an elk tag somewhere. It doesn’t make it right just because they can do it. We have no choice if we want to hunt but to pay the price. But don’t sit here and say it’s what other states charge because that is an all out lie. They know they can charge the huge price increase and ppl will have no choice but to pay

Some states charge more than $1100 for an elk tag...that's a fact, I apply for them too and don't complain about it either.

If its worth it, then pay it and go hunt elk.

 

[BuzzH]

I'll reiterate so I hopefully don't get flamed...I'm not really in support of this bill as drafted, I am sympathetic to NR's who typically hunt general or low point LE units because of the likely additional point creep, and if drafted this will have as much negative affect on me (NR family and friends won't draw quite as often, and funds are tough for some) as positive (I've got like 7 resident M/S points so may never draw via points anyway).

All that said, who here is writing letters, watching committee meetings, attending game commission meetings, leaning on residents, etc. in other states to lobby to get your NR percentage bumped up? Buzz made the point, it's fair, and nobody answered. Why are WY residents selfish bastards for even considering a bill that puts it in line with other state splits -- even though there is still no net loss of elk tags and you still get a boat load of antelope tags after the initial draw. I bet not many of the loudest negative voices on this have ever attended WY legislative session or commission meeting, maybe I'm wrong.

Part of the reason this is such a big hubbub, and probably had a faster post rate than any HT thread in history, is the deal for NR's here has been so good. The hunting has been good, the prices were a particularly good value for a long time, and nobody likes having the rug pulled out. I get it to the extent I can.

I've spent half the last day thinking I am way too selfish, half not selfish enough, and am trending toward "we're all screwed in the long run either way". Maybe my bar is too low, but I don't expect my legislators to vote based on garnering national support for hunting and conservation by remaining the most relatively generous (in % tags and value) in the country. It's about two degrees removed from their political reality, and not remotely on the radar of most of their constituents. You could argue it should be, but it's not the world they live in. I don't know whose fault that is supposed to be, probably no one group in particular.

I can tell you what annoys me enough to consider contacting the committee in support of this: Getting an unsolicited e-mail from SNS/Sy Gilliland about killing the bill with zero actual information in it (and how do they have my personal e-mail address), and the victim complex of the squeakiest wheels on here. Like the one hound guy that blew up the MT/hound/bear thread, the aggressiveness make you and your fellow NR's hunters look bad. I'm not talking about those expressing alternative arguments, concerns about impacts, or frustration, those make total sense.

Really all that needs to be said...

And if anything, I think Wyoming Residents made a huge mistake being so generous for so long in regard to NR hunting opportunity. Somehow its all up to Wyoming's generosity to expose every swinging NR Johnson to hunting and create public land advocates. When did that burden fall on Wyoming?

We should have tightened things up 20 years ago before the entitlement was so rampant and out of control.

 

[WapitiBob]

Really all that needs to be said...

...

We should have tightened things up 20 years ago before the entitlement was so rampant and out of control.

I'm embarrassed to say I'm a non resident after reading posts here and on rokslide.

The price increases?, yea, those are a bit much and could be phased in to soften the blow but any nr that doesn't feel entitled knows 90/10 is the right thing to do.

 

[brocksw]

Really all that needs to be said...

And if anything, I think Wyoming Residents made a huge mistake being so generous for so long in regard to NR hunting opportunity. Somehow its all up to Wyoming's generosity to expose every swinging NR Johnson to hunting and create public land advocates. When did that burden fall on Wyoming?

We should have tightened things up 20 years ago before the entitlement was so rampant and out of control.

This discussion reminds me of a quote from Adam Smith:

"All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."

Only because it also reminds of another quote by Theodore Roosevelt:

"Defenders of the short-sighted men who in their greed and selfishness will, if permitted, rob our country of half its charm by their reckless extermination of all useful and beautiful wild things sometimes seek to champion them by saying the ‘the game belongs to the people.’ So it does; and not merely to the people now alive, but to the unborn people. The ‘greatest good for the greatest number’ applies to the number within the womb of time, compared to which those now alive form but an insignificant fraction. Our duty to the whole, including the unborn generations, bids us restrain an unprincipled present-day minority from wasting the heritage of these unborn generations. The movement for the conservation of wild life and the larger movement for the conservation of all our natural resources are essentially democratic in spirit, purpose, and method.”

I guess what I'm saying Buzz, is that I don't think anyone is asking you or WY or the resident hunters of Wyoming, to run the management portion of hunting as a charity. The concern from the "swinging NR Johnson" like myself and it looks like others, is that everything happening seems to be a trend to exclusivity and making that barrier of entry more and more difficult. Stacking the deck more and more against the average joe who has fueled hunting from the beginning of time.

And some of us are asking questions in these scenarios...."Is this the right thing to do?" "Who does this benefit?" "Why is this always about money?" "What about the future generations?" ....there are lots of questions to ask when these new management decisions are made and it always appears that the people pushing these bills have a very one sided perspective and aren't asking many questions at all....is it a coincidence that so often they are the ones that benefit?

 

[Thomas11]

Some states charge more than $1100 for an elk tag...that's a fact, I apply for them too and don't complain about it either.

If its worth it, then pay it and go hunt elk.

I did point out NV and UT do which are outliners due to the extremely limited number of NR tags given out and basically once in a lifetime. What my issue is this guy said it was what the other top 4 states are charging for elk. I listened to the video of the meeting. Which is a lie. It’s just that a lie. Which I’m not even sure how u define “top states”. I wouldn’t put NV or UT in my top 4 in the least because u can’t realistically get a tag. And yes I apply there as well but I understand the odds. WY sells themselves on being an “opportunity state with quality” and I don’t disagree. I wouldn’t call charging 1100 for an elk tag an opportunity but whatever. It’s price gouging at its finest. I would say WY is a comparable state to hunt elk as NM, maybe AZ, CO and MT. And they aren’t near 1100? U can’t compare getting a NV tag or Utah once in a lifetime The same as WY general tag every 3 yrs and say it’s a fair price. It is what it is but that guy is a lie

 

[Thomas11]

I'm embarrassed to say I'm a non resident after reading posts here and on rokslide.

The price increases?, yea, those are a bit much and could be phased in to soften the blow but any nr that doesn't feel entitled knows 90/10 is the right thing to do.

I understand the 90/10 and don’t disagree. But the price gouging is nuts! That guy says it is what other states are charging and he is a lie! I only know of UT and NV that charge over 1k. And Utah just changed it this yr. and they are basically once in a lifetime tags so its a bit diff

 

[WapitiBob]

I had no real problem with his Antelope pricing. WY is in my top 3, under AZ and NM, but at the top for hunting opportunity. Maybe knock $75 off the full price and increase the doe/fawn to $80. $40 for a doe tag is way too low.

I can't speak to Deer other than to say that here in OR we shook forkies. In Wyoming they let 4x4's walk. When elk hunting out in the sage last year, as soon as the sun started going down Bucks started popping out of the sage like ticks off a dead Deer. I've never seen anything like it.

$1,100 for an Elk tag ? They're $780 in OR (poor hunt), $800 in UT and AZ (under priced) so I would put $1100 a tad high but $850-$900 wouldn't be out of line.

Tiered pricing like NM maybe?

 

[BuzzH]

This discussion reminds me of a quote from Adam Smith:

"All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."

Only because it also reminds of another quote by Theodore Roosevelt:

"Defenders of the short-sighted men who in their greed and selfishness will, if permitted, rob our country of half its charm by their reckless extermination of all useful and beautiful wild things sometimes seek to champion them by saying the ‘the game belongs to the people.’ So it does; and not merely to the people now alive, but to the unborn people. The ‘greatest good for the greatest number’ applies to the number within the womb of time, compared to which those now alive form but an insignificant fraction. Our duty to the whole, including the unborn generations, bids us restrain an unprincipled present-day minority from wasting the heritage of these unborn generations. The movement for the conservation of wild life and the larger movement for the conservation of all our natural resources are essentially democratic in spirit, purpose, and method.”

I guess what I'm saying Buzz, is that I don't think anyone is asking you or WY or the resident hunters of Wyoming, to run the management portion of hunting as a charity. The concern from the "swinging NR Johnson" like myself and it looks like others, is that everything happening seems to be a trend to exclusivity and making that barrier of entry more and more difficult. Stacking the deck more and more against the average joe who has fueled hunting from the beginning of time.

And some of us are asking questions in these scenarios...."Is this the right thing to do?" "Who does this benefit?" "Why is this always about money?" "What about the future generations?" ....there are lots of questions to ask when these new management decisions are made and it always appears that the people pushing these bills have a very one sided perspective and aren't asking many questions at all....is it a coincidence that so often they are the ones that benefit?

How many NR's do you allow to hunt sheep in ND?

How many NR's get to hunt moose in ND?

What percentage of deer tags do you give NR hunters?

That doesn't seem to "trend toward exclusivity"?

Yeah, I know self reflection isn't real easy is it?

Not sure who penned it for the first time, but since you're busy quoting TR and JA...

"Do what I say, not what I do" seems appropriate.

-Unknown

 

[Addicting]

I had no problem with his Antelope pricing. WY is in my top 3, under AZ and NM, but at the top for hunting opportunity.
I can't speak to Deer other than to say that here in OR we shook forkies. In Wyoming they let 4x4's walk.
$1,100 for an Elk tag ? They're $780 in OR (garbage hunt), $800 in UT and AZ (under priced) so I would put $1100 a tad high but $850-$900 wouldn't be out of line.

A deer tag with 75% CWD is worth the same as a AZ strip tag?

 

[Falcon75]

I want to hunt deer where i cut my christmas tree every year but as a resident i have a 2.5% odds, and NR can draw with 12 pref points. I will not even get into big4 residents inability to draw those mainly basedd on population decreases. But until i can draw a tag where i live before a NR
So why not ask you wildlife department for a change to resident bonus points and if that doesn't work have a elected official do it?

 

[BuzzH]

I had no real problem with his Antelope pricing. WY is in my top 3, under AZ and NM, but at the top for hunting opportunity. Maybe knock $75 off the full price and increase the doe/fawn to $80. $40 for a doe tag is way too low.

I can't speak to Deer other than to say that here in OR we shook forkies. In Wyoming they let 4x4's walk.

$1,100 for an Elk tag ? They're $780 in OR (garbage hunt), $800 in UT and AZ (under priced) so I would put $1100 a tad high but $850-$900 wouldn't be out of line.

Tiered pricing like NM maybe?

Agree except on Wyoming elk. Montana is $888 and their general elk hunting isnt even in the same ball park as Wyoming. I would value Wyoming general elk at $1000-1100 all......day......long.

 

[brocksw]

How many NR's do you allow to hunt sheep in ND?

How many NR's get to hunt moose in ND?

What percentage of deer tags do you give NR hunters?

Yeah, I know self reflection isn't real easy is it?

Come on Buzz really? To compare ND to WY, MT, ID, NV, UT, AZ, NM is an absolute joke.

We have a fraction of the wildlife and public land that those states have. Hence the reason no one is knocking down our door to come here and hunt. But we do have lots of whitetails...which is why we give away unlimited non-resident WT archery tags. How's that for charitable? We can only work with what we got right?

You're looking at this selfishly, and it's understandable...I get it. But you shouldn't hold such contempt just because the rest of the hunting public wants to ask questions. You're starting to sound like the guy we all dislike. The guy who says "I don't give a shit about any one else. I want my deer tag. The resource be damned. Other hunters be damned. The future hunters be damned. I want my opportunity and I don't give a shit who it affects or what it means for the future."

That's not a guy you want to sound like.

 

[BuzzH]

Come on Buzz really? To compare ND to WY, MT, ID, NV, UT, AZ, NM is an absolute joke.

We have a fraction of the wildlife and public land that those states have. Hence the reason no one is knocking down our door to come here and hunt. But we do have lots of whitetails...which is why we give away unlimited non-resident WT archery tags. How's that for charitable? We can only work with what we got right?

You're looking at this selfishly, and it's understandable...I get it. But you shouldn't hold such contempt just because the rest of the hunting public wants to ask questions. You're starting to sound like the guy we all dislike. The guy who says "I don't give a shit about any one else. I want my deer tag. The resource be damned. Other hunters be damned. The future hunters be damned. I want my opportunity and I don't give a shit who it affects or what it means for the future."

That's not a guy you want to sound like.

Really?

It's a joke...well then the joke is on me for allowing a NR to even apply for a moose permit in Wyoming.

North Dakota issues more moose permits than either Montana or Wyoming.

Like I said, self reflection is a monster.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

A couple of thoughts from someone with skin in the game (nonresident points):

I'm confident that if you took a poll, Wyoming would emerge as a top state, perhaps the premier state, for NR hunting in the nation. Wyoming can do what they want, but it seems short-sighted to me to wish to go from premier to middle-of-the-pack.

My wife had enough points a couple years ago to draw a cow moose tag. This was a plan we had--not a trophy hunt, just a fun adventure with (hopefully) a big pile of meat. The circumstances had not yet worked for her to apply in any year, but when they raised the license price by 50% and doubled the point fee, we walked away. I was also thinking about doing the same hunt for my three kids, but not any more. So based on point sales, they projected a 100% increase in revenue. I was considering a 300% increase. Instead they got a 100% decrease, and I never bought a tag. Just saying that I've proven that I will walk away if the system becomes not worth it. The $8 million increase is far from certain, especially since Wyoming's system is built on selling points.

Here in Oregon, our NR allocation is only 5%. I would fully support increasing it to at least 10%.

QQ

 

[VikingsGuy]

This thread (and threads like it) co-mingle two topics - how many NRs licenses should be issued (if any); and what should their price be? The answer to the first half is entirely the purview of WY residents and I leave to them their choices without a great deal of personal judgment. 0%, 5%, 10%, 20%, it is what it is, and I will adapt my activities and interests accordingly.

It is the second topic that concerns me - price. When allocating public resources for recreational/public access, I believe governments should seek to maintain a somewhat level playing field. The price should fairly cover the actual incurred costs of making the resource available and it should not be set as a profit center to be monetized to the most able to pay. Selfishly I would advocate for really jacking up prices to cull out the competition for limited tags, but that is not how we should have access to public resources. I do believe that in face of pressures on the general budgets, some states have decided monetized wildlife to fund broader F&G activities. I disagree with this. I believe it erodes long-term support for public resources when only a few can access them in practice.

 

[brocksw]

Really?

It's a joke...well then the joke is on me for allowing a NR to even apply for a moose permit in Wyoming.

North Dakota issues more moose permits than either Montana or Wyoming.

Like I said, self reflection is a monster.

Apparently the joke is on me.....I was unaware all the WY tags went through you and you were the king of the land. As I was also unaware that I alone set statute in ND. Man...thanks for cluing me in. I'm going to go sit on my thrown of hypocrisy now and hope no one finds out our secret.

 

[BlakeA]

Agree except on Wyoming elk. Montana is $888 and their general elk hunting isnt even in the same ball park as Wyoming. I would value Wyoming general elk at $1000-1100 all......day......long.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wyoming NR deer tags are in the $350-$550 range depending on license type? Montana is at $700 when it's all said and done for a general NR tag. Montana's NR deer tags are drawn out each and every year no problem and I fully expect this year to be 40% odds at best with 0-1 pp at best. They have no problem selling $700 garbage tags. Wyoming is a deal at half the cost or $200 less and anybody that has an issue with a price increase needs to look around at similar hunts in surrounding states. I can't blame Wyoming for wanting to become more up to date with the rest of the West.