A timely lament . . .

[VikingsGuy]

I don't know this guy, not sure he and I would agree about much in the political arena, but do feel like we could share a beer and not throw punches or resort to name calling. Having one foot in hard scrabble ND childhood/youth and one foot in the "educated elite" as a professional, I have seen humans I valued dearly drift way over the last 15 years. Some to the right, some to the left. All seemed to think that the price of friendship was undying fealty to the trending Facebook drama of the moment - left and right. We used to have friends who coincidentally had political views, now we only have political views that demand we sort our former friends. It is a damn shame. It saddens me.

The curse of the elitist left progressives and the punch you in the nose right populists will either be the end of this wonderful 250 yr old experiment in a democracy of the people, or it will at least form lasting scars. Scars that separate family, neighbors, friends, co-workers and sportsman. I have spent the last 4 or 5 years hoping this would pass before permanent damage was done. But fear I was wrong to have such hope - I fear that we are past a tipping point that will be far more damaging to Americans than the 2 degree climate warming one I hear so much about.

Our American existential crisis is that we have no place in our hearts and minds for people who do not show the same tribal fealty that we do. We give no space to the possibility we might learn something from a different perspective. We have the hubris to believe that catchy YouTube rants by pundits who have little actual expertise in the areas they rail about can sufficiently describe incredibly complex and nuanced issues. We allow the rightwing populist blowhards and the clueless marxist university administrators set the tone instead of average people leading average lives.

So, while I speculate that Mr. Cullen and I vigorously disagree on much, I appreciate his attempt at an obituary for an America I have loved for five decades.

OPINION EXCHANGE | We were friends for years. Trump tore us apart.

Instead of trying to hash things out, I just quit trying. My bad. I got tired.

www.startribune.com

 

[Redmt]

This is one of my very old sayings. I believe it and live by it.
" Politics has never made friends out of enemies but it definitely has made enemies out of friends".
I have long said that I don't discuss politics. It doesn't mean that I don't care as some have said. I've seen friends get all wadded up over issues that they have no control or input on. Life's too short to loose friends over politics.

 

[VikingsGuy]

This is one of my very old sayings. I believe it and live by it.
" Politics has never made friends out of enemies but it definitely has made enemies out of friends".
I have long said that I don't discuss politics. It doesn't mean that I don't care as some have said. I've seen friends get all wadded up over issues that they have no control or input on. Life's too short to loose friends over politics.

Probably wise advice, advice that probably has become mandatory in 2024 - but it is a sad existence between people to wall off every topic of human interest - including the old safe choice, the weather, as there is a political spin on almost every conceivable topic these days. The ones keeping score and raking in the $$$ are incented to creep into every corner of our thoughts - If we don't push back we will voluntarily become the soviet dominated East Germany - where there were incredibly few trusted relationships because every word was taking a huge personal risk. Reading some East German authors suggests that it was not Nazis or Communist governments that broke their soul, it was that friends, family and neighbors were listening intently trying to find any inkling of disloyalty to then report and receive their award. The left and right do this every day with cancel culture and bullying. We have lost our way in ways that far exceed concerns about the politics of sexuality or climate. It is the war of tribal fealty that is destroying this nation, not transgender rights, climate change, China policy, Israel policy, weakening of unions or immigration. These are all problems to be solved - and could be solved if we could actually agree points are scored for finding solutions and not for shaming the "other" as subhuman and evil.

But alas, a colorless world devoid of interesting discussion may be our only option.

 

[CRJR45]

I try to discuss anything and everything rationally without emotions getting in the way , and succeed mostly . But you're right , and I have lost friends and family over opinions expressed on FB about politics .
I'm a conservative centrist and think both sides are WAY out of touch with reality . But it's scary how many people on both sides use their politics to define who they are and condemn anybody that dares to disagree with them .
Hate to say it , but the problem is most Americans are just stupid and gullible , incapable of logical think or processing factual information . Left and right .
I don't see it changing in the near future , and that keeps me up at night , to tell the truth .

 

[Redmt]

Here's my point,,,,, there's some things that you actually have input and influence over. To over simplify, you don't like a certain brand of cereal. Don't eat it. Your buddy just happens to love it. What can you do about it? Not a damn thing.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Hate to say it , but the problem is most Americans are just stupid and gullible , incapable of logical think or processing factual information . Left and right .

My wife reminds me I am too quick to label others as, "moron", so a bit of the pot calling kettle black, but I think it is not that they are too stupid. I think it is more that a million years of human evolution created a brain that fears isolation from the tribe as a fate worse than death. And those who are allowed to lead have ramped this to 11 - a saber toothed tiger is always at our door. In 15000 BC, fight or flight may have been our only biological options, but in 2024, in theory, those are rarely the only or best options. The challenge is how do we get the average individual to separate the cries of the pundits which feel so existential from the issues that really are important.

 

[Moserkr]

When you dont discuss politics, you let other people speak for you.

Usually people that have no business talking in general. Ive made more friends and changed opinions by having civil conversations about politics. Ive almost met some people who should be living at the funny farm, and no longer speak to them. Life's too short to surround yourself with idiots. Politics is an easy way to find intelligence levels. Go back to my first statement, remember that in CA the idiots outnumber you 10 to 1 at least, and most of them vote. Sticking your head in the sand isn't a strategy, it's suicide. At the same time, learn to ignore those who are beyond lost, as its a waste of time talking to a wall.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Here's my point,,,,, there's some things that you actually have input and influence over. To over simplify, you don't like a certain brand of cereal. Don't eat it. Your buddy just happens to love it. What can you do about it? Not a damn thing.

I think we agree. I just would like to think your buddy and you could tease/discuss each other about your cereal preferences rather than have to never speak of cereal to maintain the peace. But you are probably right - in 2024 cereal is off the table so to speak.

 

[VikingsGuy]

When you dont discuss politics, you let other people speak for you.

Usually people that have no business talking in general. Ive made more friends and changed opinions by having civil conversations about politics. Ive almost met some people who should be living at the funny farm, and no longer speak to them. Life's too short to surround yourself with idiots. Politics is an easy way to find intelligence levels. Go back to my first statement, remember that in CA the idiots outnumber you 10 to 1 at least, and most of them vote. Sticking your head in the sand isn't a strategy, it's suicide. At the same time, learn to ignore those who are beyond lost, as its a waste of time talking to a wall.

I don't disagree, but when the "lost others" are friends or family it can still be quite a loss.

 

[rjthehunter]

I try to discuss anything and everything rationally without emotions getting in the way , and succeed mostly . But you're right , and I have lost friends and family over opinions expressed on FB about politics .
I'm a conservative centrist and think both sides are WAY out of touch with reality . But it's scary how many people on both sides use their politics to define who they are and condemn anybody that dares to disagree with them .
Hate to say it , but the problem is most Americans are just stupid and gullible , incapable of logical think or processing factual information . Left and right .
I don't see it changing in the near future , and that keeps me up at night , to tell the truth .

Amen to that.

The FB thing is just a joke. I don't engage in any political discussions on there anymore. Because people take extreme stances, and it's ridiculous.

The 2 party system isn't working. They just disagree with whatever the other party believes. There should be some middle ground.

Civil conversations with people who have opposing viewpoints makes you realize you are usually a lot closer than the news wants you to think.

 

[Redmt]

Some of these replies are proving my point.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Some of these replies are proving my point.

I choose to see the opposite. That polite discourse is possible and that disagreement does not have to be disrespectful or disagreeable.

 

[TOGIE]

until mr zuckerberg nukes his entire experiment and the governments of the world outlaw any such thing in any style or relation to it out of existence forever, we're largely #@)(*%*.

putting all of that chit in our hands everywhere we go is just as bad, thanks a lot steve jobs.

but, i've never excelled in optimism.

 

[Nameless Range]

We are at the divisive mercy of two financial machines some like to call political parties. 5 years ago I would've told you which representative of either I preferred, and why. I really no longer do.

Once I started to believe that though the difference between either are very different trails through very different philosophical geographies, and yet in their present state will actually arrive at the same destination - that being chaos - a kind of grace was incorporated into my political views. When faced with two decisions, both of which are deeply unacceptable, we shouldn't hold it against our fellow Americans for their choices as it serves little purpose.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

,,,,,

Irreconcilable

 

[VikingsGuy]

We are at the divisive mercy of two financial machines some like to call political parties. 5 years ago I would've told you which representative of either I preferred, and why. I really no longer do.

Once I started to believe that though the difference between either are very different trails through very different philosophical geographies, and yet in their present state will actually arrive at the same destination - that being chaos - a kind of grace was incorporated into my political views. When faced with two decisions, both of which are deeply unacceptable, we shouldn't hold it against our fellow Americans for their choices as it serves little purpose.

Interesting point about "parties" being financial machines. I would guess the number of Americans who livelihood is tied to national politics has grown exponentially. Pollsters, bloggers, YouTubers, talking heads, campaign consultants, PAC staff, etc etc etc. We no longer have to worry about the military industrial complex, but the political industrial complex.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Irreconcilable

Even those who don't use the Oxford comma or ellipsis with spaces are people too. They are worthy of our good will and pity.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I stopped talking to half of my family (even my sister) over their political views. They are dead to me. I guess I miss them as much as they miss me.

My dad, cousins, grandfathers, and great uncles served this country and some of them sacrificed their lives for what some people are trying to tear apart both socially and financially.

How can anyone support a party or people who thinks (votes) that it is ok for boys to go into a women's bathroom or allow boys to play in girls' sports? Thats a sickness that needs professional correction.

 

[Redmt]

A very good friend would always have an opinion on something that he felt was correct over someone else's opinion. A discussion on it was pointless. It didn't matter. There was nothing that either of them could do to rectify or influence the subject of discussion. Getting back to my oversimplified cereal scenario, I can choose what I want to eat and so could he. Neither of us could stop General Mills from producing it.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Even those who don't use the Oxford comma or ellipsis with spaces are people too.

Agreed.

But those who try to make an ellipsis with commas are beyond grace.