4 year olds with guns

[Topgun 30-06]

Wouldn't you say that style of Texas hunting is more conducive to younger hunters?

Hunting in a tower blind is certainly not the way elk or mule deer hunting out west is done if that's what you want to hear! It's really no different than hunting whitetails in a ground blind as is done in a lot of the states that have enacted the program with great success though. I mentor kids of all ages here in MI on turkey hunts every Spring and a round isn't chambered until we are set up to call. I would also have no problem mentoring an 8 year old kid in Wyoming that can shoot the proper rifle well the way we do spot/stalk on mulies and elk out there. We don't normally carry with a shell in the chamber out there either, so that would also eliminate a safety problem there, regardless of the age of the hunter.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

BuzzH stated: "And I'm fine with kids under 12 hunting on their parents tags...just not the State issuing tags to kids under 12...a majority of which will be filled by their older siblings, Dad, Mom, Uncle...and the rest of the family wreath."


***Ah, there you go again calling everyone else violators, LOL!!!

 

[BuzzH]

Topgun,

Have you ever hunted Montana...just curious?

 

[What Map]

As far as allowing kids to hunt on their parents tags.... I'd gladly let my son fill my deer or elk tag.

I could live with this restriction, I guess. But they are citizens too and will be paying for their tags; let 'em have one.

 

[noharleyyet]

Buzz, I have no doubt that hunting 5 weeks in Montana with you would kill the average 4 year old.

 

[BuzzH]

...or Texan.

 

[mtmuley]

I can't seem to get behind the mentor program. I understand the feelings of some parents and how advanced their children may be in the ways of firearms and outdoorsmanship. I also understand my feelings of hunting when a six year old may be behind a rifle somewhere close. The restrictions and educational requirements we've had here in Montana have seemed to work well to this point. I don't think another bill with an easy access to more tags here in Montana is neccesarily a good idea either. We complain about dwindling resources, but then ideas such as this are presented. mtmuley

 

[noharleyyet]

...or Texan.

Chit, if we got in to politics, you wouldn't make it past the first sentence my friend.

...and if by some miracle you did, you'd be telling a story of how you almost didn't.

 

[twodot]

And I'm fine with kids under 12 hunting on their parents tags...just not the State issuing tags to kids under 12...a majority of which will be filled by their older siblings, Dad, Mom, Uncle...and the rest of the family wreath.

Buzz, sorry, but that is BS until you provide the facts and figures that prove it. That is your opinion. Show evidence. I can make the same claim about every man who has a spouse who hunts. How about these guys whose 80 something fathers tag out? Sounds rather fishy to me. Why don't you and your wife only kill one head of game per specie that way we would know for sure you aren't shooting for her? Same reasoning.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Topgun,

Have you ever hunted Montana...just curious?

*** What the He** does that question have to do with this discussion? No, as a matter of fact I've never even set foot in Montana because it makes no difference what state we're talking about when discussing this program! It just so happens that Montana is the state we're talking about in this particular thread.

 

[twodot]

I gotta go, the boys are wanting to go coon huntin for a few hours. Hope you all get it sorted out.

 

[mtmuley]

twodot, kinda hard to provide proof of what Buzz says. But it happens. It happens ALOT. I've turned folks in for it in the past, and will in the future. No matter who it is. I can see the temptation with the mentoring program. I know people that would probably take advantage. They aren't really bad folks either. Game laws seem to be broken more easily than other laws. mtmuley

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I gotta go, the boys are wanting to go coon huntin for a few hours. Hope you all get it sorted out.

Now you've done it! That's exactly how I got started at five years old with Dad and our two coon hounds down in Indiana where I lived until moving to MI when I was 15.

 

[Hammerhead]

Sorry for a long rant, but this is one that I am passionate about:

As a teacher who spends lots of time with upper elementary & middle school students, as a Montana Hunter Education Instructor, and a parent of a twelve year old and seventeen year old, my opinion is that this is a BAD idea.

Sitting in a ground blind, or box stand and hunting over a game feeder is vastly different from what much of the hunting in Montana is involved with; shots where the shooter is seated and at a bench rest simply do not occur very often here. Physically, most children less than 12 years old have serious problems with recoil and accuracy, much less physically being able to safely carry a heavy rifle over broken ground. This isnt a Texas sendaro hunt, nor is it Pennsylvania or Wisconsin sitting in a tree stand for a couple hours on opening day. Just because they allow youth hunts in other states is no reason that Montana needs to allow them too. There are no studies I am aware of that show that lowering the minimum age to hunt has a positive influence on increasing hunter recruitment.

At sight in days for youth hunts, as well at field course days for Hunter Education, its easy to see the affect of recoil on youth, and many are not hunting with large caliber rifles. I've heard numerous stories from past students about making a poor shot on an animal that resulted in the child never again wanting to hunt again. Children in their early teens grow rapidly in both strength and intellect, both qualities needed for a safe experience. Otherwise, why not issue drivers licenses to 12 year olds, and put them out on the highway at 75mph?

I have students who live and breathe for the chance to get outdoors and hunt and fish. They talk about it with their peer group at school, and they wait their 12th birthday (or now sometimes their 11th birthday) to get out and hunt. Many of them still leave school at younger ages to go on hunting trips with family, and they share pictures of their experience when they return to school (seems like every 10 year old has a cell phone / camera anymore). They are still able to particiapte whether they carry a rifle or not.

One important factor with lowering hunting ages has not been mentioned here: Hunter Education. Currently, children must be 11 years old in order to attend class in Montana. This results in a fairly even age distribution in most hunter education classes, where most students are 11, 12 & 13 years old. Younger kids may attend class, but cannot be certified.

There is a HUGE difference in teaching hunter education concepts to a twelve year old compared to a seven or eight year old. There is a reason that students are grouped by age into school classes. Its tough to teach to a large age difference, especially with the amount of material required for certification, and the reluctance of parents to commit to attending any more than the bare minimum of classes.

Most of the instructors in my region are completely opposed to this legislation, and have STRONGLY opposed to it in the past (this is at least the third session that this bill has been brought forth).

Many of the instructors here believe so strongly in maintaining the present age that they will quit the Hunter Education program if this law is passed. Hunter Education is required by law in Montana, and the program is 100% taught by volunteers, who can barely keep up with the demand for classes now. If they leave, your license dollars will now be spent hiring teachers to teach the course instead of managing fish and wildlife resources.

No one is opposed to children spending time afield with family & friends. I think all of us here, especially the fathers and mothers, can think of no finer way to spend an hour with our children. Some of the most memorable times of my life were with my kids when they hunted and harvested game, or hunted and came home empty handed. But let them wait until they are 11 or 12 years old before you hand them a high powered rifle as the hike the hills with you.

Respectfully now steeping off my soapbox,

A Montana Hunter and Bowhunter Education Instructor

 

[Straight Arrow]

Hammerhead, thank-you! Well-said. It appears that some of the hunt talkers have lost touch with the reality of child development and various levels of maturity at certain ages. The other concern is that such proposed changes in regulations, age requirements, training requirements, educational requirements and such seem to be generated by those completely ignoring that the issue was thoroughly vetted and considered prior to the regulations being developed in the first place.

 

[mdhunter61]

Count me as among those who say stop coddling the kids and let them hunt what they're ready to hunt.

I was born in Alaska, to an Eskimo mother and a father from Maine. I started going on week-long hunting trips with my Dad at the age of 4, and carried a toy gun for two years in the field, to show him that I understood muzzle discipline; that allowed me to get a single shot .22 for Christmas when I was 6. Started hunting rabbits in January, and by the time I was 9 I was carrying a .44 Magnum rifle in the field in pursuit of moose and caribou - after showing my dad that the recoil didn't bother me at all, and that I could shoot it accurately out to 150 yards.

Wouldn't you know that the first chance I had for a caribou, was above treeline at about 250 yards when I was 11 years old. Too far for my .44 Magnum, so I guess I'll have to pass - NOT. Talked Dad into letting me shoot his .308, and dropped it for good on the third shot.

By most of the people on this thread's reckoning, I was still a year away from even being ABLE to hunt big game, with an adult present. I'm no more special than your children...my parents were just born in the woods and the wilderness, and didn't impose limits on us children unless we demonstrated that we needed limits.

Your kids are capable of amazing things, with your love, guidance, and support. Don't put too many bounds on them without cause.

 

[schmalts]

I don't need the government or a hunter safety instructor to tell me if my kid is ready to hunt. I will use my own judgment on what and when he is ready. My boy has taken plenty of turkey, lopes, and even a deer. He has not taken an elk, why?? because I feel he is not ready for that kind of hunt, not even a cow. Maybe this year, but once again, as a conservative the last thing I need is government or a hunter safety instructor telling me they know my kid's responsibility level more than I do. I had this discussion with the HS instructor here in WI, he did not want my kid to take the class because he was not old enough to hunt in WI. I told him he wasn't going to hunt in WI, but in NM instead. He also had a fit because I did the instruction myself and the kid showed up on test day to test out. When the instructor had a problem with that I looked him in the eye and asked him what made him think that without a doubt he could teach my son better than his father, and he did not know me so maybe I know more than he does. I also asked him what his own hunting experience was. Not ripping on all HS instructors, But I know more than a few and most of them are wanna-bees who kind of get off preaching to kids. I have one that lives a couple houses down, I give him my deer meat every year because he never seems to be able to fill a tag himself. The average HS instructor in WI is your basic box blind sitter, and that makes him better to teach my kid because why? To say the least that guy had it out for my kid and told me that he would watch him close and he would get no breaks. In the end, he was humbled and complimented us both on how well the kid did on his tests. That is why I say make the test tough, and if the kid passes, the kid is ready for his parent to make the final choice. I know not all state tests are tough but WI has one of the tougher tests. I got testing material for 5 states and we did them all as homework. A few states use the same courses, some don't. We spent more time going through instruction as father and son than if he had taken the class with the instructor. I know many parents can't teach what they don't know themselves, and some kids at any age can't learn as well as others, that is why the tests should be tough and the kid should fail if not ready.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Hammerhead, thank-you! Well-said. It appears that some of the hunt talkers have lost touch with the reality of child development and various levels of maturity at certain ages. The other concern is that such proposed changes in regulations, age requirements, training requirements, educational requirements and such seem to be generated by those completely ignoring that the issue was thoroughly vetted and considered prior to the regulations being developed in the first place.

Do any of you against the Bill believe that change, if properly done, is not good? Our entire Drivers Ed program in MI was scrapped a number of years ago and now kids can take the course at 14 1/2 instead of 16. Then they follow set procedures where their parents do the rest of the actual training and they progress to different driving levels over the next couple years. When I was a kid it was a set 16 years of age deal with just a short probationary period and we could then drive whenever and wherever we wanted. This newer system has worked and the kids are much better and safer according to all the statistics out there even though they start 1 1/2 years earlier than the old system. I don't believe any of the people on this thread that feel this is a good Bill have lost touch with anything. Every one of us who is in favor of it have specifically stated that it allows the parent to decide what is appropriate for their particular child. Nobody is forcing this on someone who doesn't want it for their particular family. All it is doing is allowing those who feel their child is ready at an earlier age based on their intimate knowledge of that particular child to proceed a few years earlier than the law now allows. I would hope that a responsible parent would be able to safely take their kid out to do their style of hunting in Montana, regardless of how that hunting is done. That might include the parent carrying the firearm part of the time or maybe the entire time until an animal is spotted. I don't know how many people jump shoot deer and elk out there, but I wouldn't think it's that common and I'm certainly not advocating that type of hunt for a young kid. Done properly like I mentioned the way I would do it in Wyoming, I really think it would work and be done safely. From what I'm hearing on this thread it appears there are a lot more concerns about the parent cheating and shooting the animal on the kid's tag than are concerned with safety.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Do any of you against the Bill believe that change, if properly done, is not good?

It would be good IF properly done. That's not the case so far. That's a huge IF.

As they say, "The devil is in the details" and when it comes to something proposed based merely on an ideological viewpoint, usually the details are not thought out nor clearly formulated.

 

[BuzzH]

I don't need the government or a hunter safety instructor to tell me if my kid is ready to hunt. I will use my own judgment on what and when he is ready. My boy has taken plenty of turkey, lopes, and even a deer. He has not taken an elk, why?? because I feel he is not ready for that kind of hunt, not even a cow. Maybe this year, but once again, as a conservative the last thing I need is government or a hunter safety instructor telling me they know my kid's responsibility level more than I do. I had this discussion with the HS instructor here in WI, he did not want my kid to take the class because he was not old enough to hunt in WI. I told him he wasn't going to hunt in WI, but in NM instead. He also had a fit because I did the instruction myself and the kid showed up on test day to test out. When the instructor had a problem with that I looked him in the eye and asked him what made him think that without a doubt he could teach my son better than his father, and he did not know me so maybe I know more than he does. I also asked him what his own hunting experience was. Not ripping on all HS instructors, But I know more than a few and most of them are wanna-bees who kind of get off preaching to kids. I have one that lives a couple houses down, I give him my deer meat every year because he never seems to be able to fill a tag himself. The average HS instructor in WI is your basic box blind sitter, and that makes him better to teach my kid because why? To say the least that guy had it out for my kid and told me that he would watch him close and he would get no breaks. In the end, he was humbled and complimented us both on how well the kid did on his tests. That is why I say make the test tough, and if the kid passes, the kid is ready for his parent to make the final choice. I know not all state tests are tough but WI has one of the tougher tests. I got testing material for 5 states and we did them all as homework. A few states use the same courses, some don't. We spent more time going through instruction as father and son than if he had taken the class with the instructor. I know many parents can't teach what they don't know themselves, and some kids at any age can't learn as well as others, that is why the tests should be tough and the kid should fail if not ready.

Volunteer to teach hunters ed...show them how its done.