Wyoming Corner Crossing Defense Fund

[grizzly_]

It seems to me the argument is that UIA was written to provide the public with access to federal land and the idea is that the state trespass statute conflicts with federal law by restricting access to public land and is thus an unlawful statute. Is that the professor's position?

 

[Deleted member 20812]

“However, there is no federal crime with respect to the alleged state trespass violations.“. I think you just answered your own question, THERE WAS NO FEDERAL CRIME NOR A STATE CRIME. Walking from BLM to BLM is not a crime according to the Professors viewpoint.

Sounds like you won’t be around to respond, but you are arguing in circles here. There was an alleged state crime (trespass) with a private landowner complainant. That should be resolved in state court, regardless of what one thinks of the merits of the charge.

The federal violations (UIA and/or off road travel) are federal crimes.

Hunter harassment could likely go in either venue.

 

[grizzly_]

That should be resolved in state court,

How would somebody challenge the legality of a State law if they believe it violates a Federal law?

Does the defendant have to lose in State Court and then appeal their conviction to a Federal Appeals Court, or can they attempt to break the State law by using the Federal law as the hammer?

It seems obvious that States can't pass laws that violate Federal law and then just hide behind the idea that since a Federal agency isn't charging the defendant with the crime, he's only subject to a potentially unlawful State statute.

These guys knew what they were doing and it seems clear they're looking to set a precedent. I can only assume they've got a cogent legal argument to make, regardless if anybody on a hunting thread (including me) thinks they've got all the answers.

I think the most brilliant attorney in the world on this specific matter would still tell his client he's not sure how any single judge might rule.

That's why they still hear the case.

 

[Dakotakid]

Does the defendant have to lose in State Court and then appeal their conviction to a Federal Appeals Court, or can they attempt to break the State law by using the Federal law as the hammer?

If the defendant loses in State trial Court, he/they would appeal to Wyoming Supreme Court. If “loses” in State Supreme, they can petition the US Supreme Court to take up case.

 

[Dakotakid]

These guys knew what they were doing and it seems clear they're looking to set a precedent. I can only assume they've got a cogent legal argument to make, regardless if anybody on a hunting thread (including me) thinks they've got all the answers.

I don’t have the answer, it is 50/50 which way it goes.
The court will make a decision, another court will make a decision, another court might make a decision, the legislature then might make a decision altering the Court’s decision. That is the rule of law.

I am critical of misstatements of procedure and critical of arguments that are emotional rather than based in reason.

I hope the defendants are able to make a fully reasoned defense, not a sound bite for the media.

 

[RobG]

I learned in a recent trespass case that there are two ways to attack these types of cases.
1) Determine if the defendants are guilty of breaking the law as written.
2) Put the innocent/guilty question on hold and determine whether the landowner has a right to block access to federal land.

The latter is probably what is meant by “Taking it to federal court.” If this isn’t done the verdict in this case won’t mean a lot.

 

[BrentD]

I am critical of misstatements of procedure and critical of arguments that are emotional rather than based in reason.

What if the statements are both based in reason and emotional? What then?

It's not a zero-sum trade off.

I just hope they get on with it 'cuz this thread ain't likely to die anytime soon, though I don't see it is going anywhere productive.

What I would be interested to know is what percentage of landlocked public lands would be freed up by the corner-crossing rule. 50%? Much More? Much Less?

 

[Sytes]

What avenues need to be exhausted for a civil suit in U.S. District Court against the landowner for blocking access to federal land?

Re: @RobG and whomever,
"2) Put the innocent/guilty question on hold and determine whether the landowner has a right to block access to federal land."

 

[Dakotakid]

The links in the article discuss the process under the UIA. Just from memory it outlined a complaint/affidavit. It would take more review to find if process is in place.
It will be interesting to see how Camfield v US applies.

I also hope the defendants did that.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Hypothetical: If you are just out hiking, not hunting and you cross from one section of BLM land into another section and you are following along on OnX maps, not at the corners, right in the middle and all of a sudden ten ranch hands carrying guns on horses ride up like RIP from Yellowstone and say you just trespassed and harass you. They call the sheriff and he writes you a ticket for trespassing. He doesn’t know the boundary lines but takes RIPs word you trespassed. Who has jurisdiction in this case, BLM or the county? The Professor is arguing it’s BLM who has jurisdiction. Now relate this example to a corner, if you cross from one BLM corner into another BLM corner then no trespassing occurred, using the Colorado Law Professors argument as all you did was access one piece of BLM lands and step onto another piece of BLM land. Just as in the case of crossing whether in the middle or in the corner you are merely stepping from BLM to BLM and no trespassing has occurred in his opinion, which seems highly credible reading his BIO.

The BLM didn’t bring the charges…

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I want to see their gps track.

On x is far from perfect shows me here in Libby at the high school 100 yards off

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I am a little torn on this, would like to know if there intention was to hunt or get a ticket? Would like to make sure this isn't just a guy trying to make a name for himself on some platform as the guy who is fighting "the man". I would like to see tracks and profile on people (did they even have a tag) before I can put more than a few bucks towards a issue. Hopefully someone with knowledge of case at Wy BHA could vouch or acknowledge merits of case to us. Could just be 4 Dbags mad at a limited access unit and got caught trying to cheat. Just remember it may not turn out the way everyone expects/wants on this site so be careful what you wish for...




.

They brought a ladder as to not step on their land. Either way it’s public land not Their free hunting land. Agree it sucks

 

[nastynate]

What I would be interested to know is what percentage of landlocked public lands would be freed up by the corner-crossing rule. 50%? Much More? Much Less?

This link has a lot of reports for different regions of the US that you'd find interesting.

Landlocked Public Lands - Land Access Reports and Updates | onX

onX and TRCP have released the “Inaccessible State Lands in the West” report, showing more than 6.35 million acres of state lands landlocked by private lands.

www.onxmaps.com

This quote is from an outdoor life article: "The de facto ban on stepping from public land, to public land, over an intersection with private, hits sportsmen and –women hardest in Montana and Wyoming. There, access to 724,000 and 404,000 acres respectively is lost behind such corners."

Cornered: Western Sportsmen Trapped by Arcane Regulation Prohibiting Public Access at Corner Crossings

You greet 5 a.m. with your boots on, headed uphill. By dawn, you are miles from camp and have a band of 12 elk in your binocular. They're grazing lazily away from you along the opposite slope, flirting within rifle range in the early morning quiet. And like you, they are standing on public land...

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[WapitiBob]

On x is far from perfect shows me here in Libby at the high school 100 yards off

I'm within about 3' as I sit here.

 

[YoungGun]

In this case, I don't think the GPS data from the Corner Crossing itself is relevant, as they crossed over the corner pin. I would only be curious as to the GPS track if it was alleged that they trespassed either before or after crossing the corner.

 

[WapitiBob]

I asked about the track before I was told they crossed at the Elk MT. corner.

 

[Fremont15]

This case is moving painfully slow. Most circuit court cases move a little quicker than this in Wyoming.

 

[mhungerford]

Any news on this?

 

[Elkmagnet]

Happy to be of assistance, let me know how else I can help

...waiting for Itemized bill...

 

[VikingsGuy]

...waiting for Itemized bill...

or . . . still waiting for the retainer check . . .