Wolves in CO - from CPAW

wllm1313

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Their presence is/was inevitable hopefully residents can act pragmatically manage our herds with this new variable.

(Can we keep the SSS comments to a minimum and the discussion on the rails)
 

wllm1313

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Honestly I think organic/migration into the state is the best case scenario.

Introduction seems like political nightmare. I’m curious to find out when state management might be allowed to take place.
 

TOGIEGOAT

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Honestly I think organic/migration into the state is the best case scenario.

Introduction seems like political nightmare. I’m curious to find out when state management might be allowed to take place.
agree

my hope is that this might cool their jets a little. or cause our ever so educated resident citizens to question what the point of the ballot initiative is if we're already seeing wolves here. campaigns could spin that well, e.g. "why waste all this money on (re)introductions if they're already here?"
 

Ben Lamb

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Honestly I think organic/migration into the state is the best case scenario.

Introduction seems like political nightmare. I’m curious to find out when state management might be allowed to take place.
It depends on classification of the animal under the ESA. If it's an experiemental/nonessential reintroduction, it gives people a lot more leeway to deal with problem animals than if it's classified as endangered population, which means less of a heavy hand in management. Any idea on how these animals are classified in CO? It's been a long time since I've looked at toothy critters south of the MT border.
 

TOGIEGOAT

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according to the articles they are classified as federally endangered in colorado. reminding people you'll rot in prison if you even look at em funny. but who am i to trust the local news

but, i'm also ignorant...

they certainly are a federally endangered species, does that change if they wander into CO and CO officials never jived with the listing? or never officially decided to call them endangered too?

federally endangered is federally endangered yeah?
 

Ben Lamb

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according to the articles they are classified as federally endangered in colorado. reminding people you'll rot in prison if you even look at em funny. but who am i to trust the local news

but, i'm also ignorant...

they certainly are a federally endangered species, does that change if they wander into CO and CO officials never jived with the listing? or never officially decided to call them endangered too?

federally endangered is federally endangered yeah?
Not always. You have threatened, endangered, experimental/nonessential desingations, IIRC.

And if I remember my CO populations correctly, you have two. I-70 being the dividing line between the north & south DPS'. I'm not as well versed as I should be on CO's approach or the initiative, but I'm completely sure a ballot initiative will create more problems than it solves, yet not so sure allowing for natural expansion means better management options.

Clear as mud?
 

Sytes

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Forced re-introduction is a poor action. Lack of State Management is a poor action. I hope for my brother and friends in CO sake, you are able to beat back the extreme enviro's who hindered Montana, ID and WY and still choke the Great Lake States. Hopefully sooner than later you are able to utilize an effective State Management wolf plan. I use "effective" as *much more effective than the choke hold on USFWS by those wolf cuddly loving enviro's.

Then take into account how a forced introduction would potentially adversely effect the actual ESA Mexican wolves as presented in Randy's podcast and it's merely another devastating aspect of forced re-introduction. These wolves should be able to integrate as they migrate and the State should be able to manage...

Chatting with my brother, we agree... probably a 20-30% chance. I think CO will be held up for a good while as CO holds a bit of the big city convergence of outsiders who've moved for the love of the land and have little to no interest in elk and other big game...

At least those super wolves will make sure to reduce those massively overpopulated elk and other big game herds. The adverse impact those elk, etc have done to Colorado is simply devastating... I jest.
 

wllm1313

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I think the biggest goal for sportsman is going to be to secure state management as quickly as possible and/or to make sure we keep hunting as a management option. This might seem a bit cart before the the horse but I would hate to see a CA scenario where the CO electorate puts a permanent wolf hunting ban in the constitution like they did spring bear.

@Sytes your aren't wrong, that's why I think orgs like RMEF needs to be active participants in recovery in the state and not just dig in their heals. I know Randy was highly involved in the MT process and have heard him mention his frustrations with how things played out. I'm hoping there is something to be learned from his and others experiences.

I would much rather see RMEF be a supporter of reintroduction and lobby for a rider on the proposal mandating state management protection than have them walk away from the process and give up their chances to participate in the process.

It's a frustrating, complicated issue, with a diverse set of stakeholders to be sure, but sportsman can't walk away from the table.
 
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jlmatthew

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The wolves have to cross a lot of ranches that make a lot of money off elk hunting. I just dont see them having a very good chance of becoming established.
 

Sytes

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@wllm1313 Are you speaking, you would prefer an actual series of grey wolf transplants, as in forced reintroduction or their current routing into CO type reintroduction?

Personally, after listening to Randy's podcast on the danger a forced reintroduction will be for the actual - real deal - the true ESA issue with the Mexican Wolves... That would be less than stellar for sake of the intended ESA action.

100% supportive of the RMEF's position on the forced transplanting reintroduction of the Grey Wolves. Enviro's are going to continue their swing for everything far beyond the actual ESA as clearly presented in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan. Heck they have thousands of wolves and the anti ESA Activists are still strangling them... How MT, WY and ID broke free is a God send.
 
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wllm1313

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My preferred route would be to have nature take its course.

I'm just not sure what the best route is to help secure state management. I think we will have full blown wolves packs in reasonable numbers within 20 years no matter what.

Seems like if you are 50 you might just want to dig in your heels because you can delay them getting here and not really have to worry about them in your lifetime. This strategy probably loses you a seat at the management table, and may end up with a CA like situation where wolves can only be killed by the state with dep permits.

Some sort of cooperation might mean wolves get here in 5-10 years, but you get state management and hunting 5-10 after that.

In light of current events I would be interested to hear from people who went through it what they would do differently assuming, stopping wolves is not an option.
 

Sytes

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A very basic review that does not cover the obstacles, though holds a chronological order, etc.




Hopefully, with respect to wolves, people have a goal to plant a tree to shade the future...
 
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colo_junk

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Not always. You have threatened, endangered, experimental/nonessential desingations, IIRC.

And if I remember my CO populations correctly, you have two. I-70 being the dividing line between the north & south DPS'. I'm not as well versed as I should be on CO's approach or the initiative, but I'm completely sure a ballot initiative will create more problems than it solves, yet not so sure allowing for natural expansion means better management options.

Clear as mud?
Looks like wolves are still listed as endangered in Colorado? Not seeing anything that specifies which portion of the state in under a different designation.

https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp0/profile/speciesProfile?spcode=A00D

Also looks like you can still comment on the proposed delisting until July 15th

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2019-05-14/pdf/2019-09857.pdf#page=1
 

Zach

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Honestly I think organic/migration into the state is the best case scenario.

Introduction seems like political nightmare. I’m curious to find out when state management might be allowed to take place.
agree

my hope is that this might cool their jets a little. or cause our ever so educated resident citizens to question what the point of the ballot initiative is if we're already seeing wolves here. campaigns could spin that well, e.g. "why waste all this money on (re)introductions if they're already here?"
Just a small sampling from the Facebook photography crowd, but I don't see this as a buffer to slowing down reintroduction, but rather it's chum in the water and there is about to be a feeding frenzy. There are some absolute zealots on the wolf reintro crowd that already thing big game hunting is bad enough of a management practice and are about a gnats ball hair short of calling for an all out hunting ban.

I can envision the first legal take of a wolf in CO, it's not going to be pretty. Look how crazy it was when the moose was arrowed up at Brainard Lake.


I've personally seen 1 wolf near Winter Park/Fraser, heard a few up in Routt, and heard some second hand stories from other areas. This is not big news other than CPW officially acknowledging their presence.

What source material is anyone using to debate the pro-wolf crowd?
 
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