What??? Will be the Economic Base?

[Ten Bears]

GRINNER, you still haven't answered the question. Please don't try to paint me in your own "momma's boy" image.

You, yourself, maybe hem bound, but I have been free of that for quite some time. The very statements you made demonstrates how little you actually know about the area I live in, but you still keep avoiding the main question. GRINNER, let me enlighten you with some information. In my case (a small portion of the big equation) we have the mystique of trying to attract ...... to a superfund site. The airport is built in the flood plain (only place it will fit), and can accomodate smaller twin engines at the most. The rail system was abandoned and removed as part of the "cleanup". That leaves us with an interstate (90). Remember, I asked a bigger question then North Idaho.

1-P, sees the tourism pie getting bigger, but I don't think so.

DG, everyone thinks pretty much the same about North Idaho, remove rednecks/insert NAZI's.

So right ROCKY, so right.

 

[dgibson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you have access to an airport, and an educated populace, you can bring jobs in anywhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WRONG. Or, more to the point, NOT COMPLETE. Yes, an airport and an educated populace are certainly requirements, but that's not how the game is played anymore. In order to bring jobs to an area, you need a lot of things, including:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>A proven workforce (how can you be proven without jobs?)
<LI>A community/state/politicians who are willing to make sacrifices in order to bring those jobs into the area (tax breaks for the company, willing to condemn or cajole property in order to make it cheap for the company, willing to provide "assistance" to the company during inception, etc.)
<LI>A populace who is willing to "make room" for the new industry without a lot of flack (not complain much about land & development for the company, not a lot of environmental arguments, not a lot of "not in my back yard" issues, etc.)[/list]
The list goes on and on. I don't know how it goes in Idaho, but around here every company that announces it's going to build or expand is immediately approached by several different states, communities, etc. They get to say "show me your package" and then pick the one that's the best deal for them. That's good for the company, but often becomes a large-scale version of the "good old boy" system. Smaller towns or poorer areas simply cannot compete with larger markets in the way of tax breaks, infrastructure improvements, etc. So "depressed areas" continue to be depressed because you've got to spend money to make money, and they don't have it to spend.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not so simple as "build it and they will come." Not anymore.

 

[Muledeer4me]

"In Sun Valley, there is no mining left, no logging, and that is where Marvel is headquartered, so grazing is being limited. And that economy is just fine, and not only do they have the tourism base, but they also have a business base. Power Engineers has a large staff up there. And other professional staffs are up there."

LOL A place where the people doing the work (maid job's ,flipping burger's,pulling shots at starbucks )can't afford to live,because all those Jon Marvel type's have bought up the local housing and no one want's house's that THAT type of person can afford to be built,in THERE town!!! It just doesn't fit in with the type of housing the Jon Marvel/movie star/fly my jet into the airport type people can afford.LOL
But it sure does bring in the big wig's and tourist.
So where does the hunter's fit in?
From what I have seen it's not usually the same type of people that are backing the Jon Marvel/greenie /tourist town's .
You change alot of the small town's to a tourist trap from a ranching town and you get what ? more Sun Valley's?
More yellowstone park's ? More non-hunting type people ?
Isn't it the smaller ranching /farming area's that have welcomed the hunter's ,not the town's that have had to change to support the "tourist" group's ?
As town's cater more to the tourist ,don't you think we the hunter's are going to be pushed out more?
Because to survive we need to change ,right?

But that change is slanting the way of the green group's---------anti-motorized,anti-grazing ,anti-logging ,pro wildlife WATCHING,pro hiking.
How far behind is the hunter? when the economic base has to chance from ranching to tourist?
After all we can't forget this post from elkgunner

["Welcome to Idaho... Perhaps you will start reading the local papers here.... We have already got Jet Boats banned out of Hells Canyon on a couple of days per week, every other week.

Small steps.... "]

Yep Small Step's ,one step at a time untill that next step is stepping on hunter's?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 10-01-2003 16:22: Message edited by: Muledeer4me ]</font>

 

[JoseCuervo]

Rocky Dog,

There is a "Dream Elk Hunt" of ours that we some day want to pull off, that involves our last hot meal and phone calls in Darby....

And I think you get a "chicken and egg" thing with the "greedy corporate timber company" and the "enviros". If you wouldn't have had the unsustainable processes in the beginning, the second group never would have got traction.

The retirement account thing is kind of interesting. There was a generation that just retired, that went to work for a "Big Company", and they were promised a fat pension, when they were done.

Then the next generation signed on for the same thing, or so they thought, but due to mergers, bankruptcies, differing laws and tax incentives, these guys are now left with the cold facts that there may not be anybody looking out for them. This is the generation that feels screwed. Maybe the 45-62 year olds???

And then there is the next generation, (Mine!!) that decided that everybody is responsible for their own retirement account, and if you want money at age 60, you better load up your 401K and don't count on Social Security for a dime.

There may now be another generation in the work force younger than me, but I am not sure what their view on retirement is...

Ten,
Sorry to hear that you don't have an airport... And I was already aware that you didn't have an education

You are right about the Superfund site, not a major asset... But, you can always tell mamma you will write, and move down the road a ways.... Lewiston has an airport...

I actually don't think Tourism is the answer, and I brought up Sun Valley as a town that has more than Tourism, as it has lots of Professional staff jobs, Engineering, Architects, and people who commute to Calif to work.

I think is what you really need, is educated kids who left, got some skils and some entrepenurial skills, and want to move back home. They will bring their jobs back. How far are you from Coldwater Creek? There are success stories in lots of towns. You can't just sit there and whine. You gotta go start a company...

DG,
That whole "Sell your soul to the devil" approach that many states use in recruiting companies seems like a Zero-sum game. In the short term, you may win, but the costs to the state that wins are huge. If BMW is coming to America any way, then you are just pitting state vs. state, and one state is giving away its tax revenue for the jobs. Then the next state has to do the same for the next factory. And so on... Soon, everybody has sold their soul.

Idaho is barred from much of the shenanigans that we see from the South on these Corporate enticements, so about the most Idaho does is offer help with education. Seems like a reasonable and modest concession.

 

[dgibson]

You're right, often about all it amounts to is a political tool ("Senator So-and-so brought 500 jobs to Kentucky...vote for him!"). It does improve things for the citizenry because they get a piece of the financial pie in the way of wages, so on and so forth. Given the fierce competition here, I have to wonder how a state like Idaho can attract any jobs at all...unless the employer is looking for something other than an incentive package, like "quality of life," "lifestyle," etc. That and the fact that land is probably quite a bit cheaper up there.

Fascinating.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Bringing a few jobs into a bad economy is great and all, but there are tons of resources in these areas that are just sitting there going to the bugs, I suppose that is a good thing if you are a bug, but does no one any good if you are trying to help the local economy. I understand fully what the lefts agenda really is, shut these towns off from supporting themselves and they will die. Then the areas can eventually be considered abandon and turned into undesignated wilderness areas, or tourist traps that are at the whim of the nations economy...

 

[Ten Bears]

GRINNER, I live about 50 mile from the call coldwater creek telephone center in Coeur d' Alene. What do you know of their hiring and firing record? If the base will not be logging, mining, ranching, or tourism. What will it be? You say Idaho should only be for the rich commuter????

If you like to hang on your momma's apron strings you can, but don't think the rest of us do just because you can't cut the cord.

I wouldn't call this question whining. I just wanted to know if "you" had thought things through before "you" decided to sell out the livelihoods of others.

Now since you keep trying to turn this question into an attack on me, but you seem to have all the answers, answer this. I could go back to college, and be a drain on the limited sources of educational funding and resources, and then look for work just before I reach retirement age, or have to keep working in order to build a retirement that I could never afford to take. I wouldn't want any of those college loans though, they would only increase my debt load, and I doubt I'd have much of a chance in the job market at my age. What carrer path should I take up? What capital should I use to try to start my own business?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 10-02-2003 10:07: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, It sure sounds like you're in a hopeless situation! I'm sorry to hear it.

 

[Muledeer4me]

Good post elkchsr & Ten Bears.


"I wouldn't call this question whining. I just wanted to know if "you" had thought things through before "you" decided to sell out the livelihoods of others."

That's a real good question Ten Bear's.
The answer as far as I can tell from most of the (Jon Marvel type's)is that they don't give a shit about anyone except there own very limited intrest's.


Even elkgunner & Marvels way of living is being targeted by the radical environmental groups. These groups are now targeting the next group of folks they think are stinking up the environment.

"A sabotage campaign by the nation's most radical environmental group has moved from the countryside to the doorstep of the nations biggest cities."
They are now targeting the luxury homes and SUV's ." Sun Valley could be next .
" They are moving from the save-the wilderness focus to an anit-capitalist focus."

Where does that leave Jon Marvel and Elkgunner with there view's?
To hell with the small town's,bring in the big business ,SUV's & tourist trade----looks like shit really does run down hill LOL
I can see the headlines now.


Big Idaho environmentalist get's his lifestyle torched by the same groups he used in his stomping campain to kick out the public lands rancher & other public land user group's !!!!!!

 

[Ten Bears]

IT, the skys are always darkest before the storm. As I said before I can weather through this, it's the bigger picture I'm concerned with.
Here's a run down of our local economy/job market: http://www.jobservice.ws/admin/uploadedPublications/1068_ShoshoneProfile.pdf
Sorry, it's one of them acrobat reader things and I can't cut-n-paste'em.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> There were five Idaho counties that experienced double-digit unemployment rates in August. Shoshone County is forecast to have an unemployment rate of 16.1 percent in August, up from 14.8 percent in July and 12.2 percent in August 2002. Adams County’s rate of 15.6 percent is unchanged from July, but down slightly from 15.7 percent in August 2002. Washington County is forecast to experience 13.8 percent unemployment in August 2003 compared to 11.2 percent in July and 11.3 percent in August 2002. Payette County’s rate of 13.3 percent is up from 11.0 percent in July and 10.2 percent in August 2002. Clearwater County’s rate of 11.2 percent was up from 10.2 percent in July, but down from 14.4 percent in August 2002. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.jobservice.us/lmi/uirates.htm
I can remember when unemployment was 28%.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 10-02-2003 14:19: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

Thanks Deb!!
The other part of this coin that I see is that the subordinate minions that flock to save the world, never really see the big picture of what is happening, they only follow blindly with a ring in their nose those that have a bigger agenda. This agenda doesn't follow along a 1-5 year guideline; they are looking farther forward on the lines of a generational thing. They can paint a pretty picture and use colorful words and phrases that sound good to those that blindly follow, they even use intelligent people that are to blinded by their short lived foresights to see the bigger, longer picture...
They use these people to name call and try to drag down any of those that can actually see what is going on to bring them down to their small shortsighted existence!!!

 

[1_pointer]

What is the economic base of towns that had the surrounding lands raped and then left? There are many a small town in SE IN that are nearly dead that were thriving under the strip mining of the '30's and 40's. The lands were never 'reclaimed'. I'm sure there are similar situation with mining/logging towns in ID. What do we do with them??

One thing we must remember is that when dealing with a publicly held resource (which the Natl. Forest is) we are at the whims of the public. Also, must keep in mind that much more of the voting and tax paying public lives on the righthand side of the Mississippi! To them, forests for forests sake may mean more to them than the price of 2X4's.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Here's why our politicians in the back pockets of the resource extraction industry are hurting Idahoans. Same thing in other states. Any politician who doesn't vote for every bill that will enhance hunting and fishing should be thrown out, and any voter who doesn't understand that is stupid. Any hunter who votes for politicians who are anti-Fish and Game is an idiot. Unfortunately, we have some of those here.

"Hunters spent $231 million in Idaho in 2001, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service´s 2001 National Survey of Fishing, Hunting and Wildlife Associated Recreation. The survey, done every five years, does not segregate spending by types of hunting.

But survey statistics showed 63 percent of Idaho hunters pursued deer, which means the deer season probably accounts for a large portion of that $231 million.

Hunting rivals Idaho´s skiing industry annually in terms of economic activity, according to the Idaho Department of Commerce. It ranks among the top activities in Idaho´s $2 billion per-year tourist industry — the third-largest industry in the state behind manufacturing and agriculture....."

http://204.155.170.147/story.asp?ID=50612

That $231 million doesn't require a special infrastructure to support it and it doesn't cause pollution that is expensive to clean up. It doesn't degrade water quality and require expensive new technology in water treatment plants. It doesn't require new roads and schools like the mine in Challis did before it abandoned the town and left the taxpayers with a huge debt. It doesn't cause flooding and property damage. It's a clean industry. What do you think would happen if the hunting and fishing were twice as good as they are now? Do you think more people would hunt and fish in Idaho. Do you think we'd sell all the non-resident deer tags like we used to?

Hunting and fishing are industries that bring in CLEAN dollars from other states and have almost no detrimental impact except a few extra vehicles on the roads.

Can anyone tell me why we shouldn't do everything possible to increase the top activity (hunting and fishing) in the third largest industry in the state?

Keep voting for all those anti F&G politicians and you'll actually hurt the Idaho economy. That's why I get so disgusted with posters here who have no idea how their representatives vote on F&G issues. They really have to be stupid to keep electing their worst enemies

 

[ELKCHSR]

What happens to the natural resources to the peoples that live out of the 'regions' from which they are taken, shouldn't have much if any say of what goes on in rural America. These people neither understand any thing they are donating their dollars or voting for. The public is a fickle thing and shouldn't be addressing management issues..That is why we as a nation pay out billions in the management of... Now if there are things where the resources are being mismanaged, then it is up to the public to vote in people that will fix it, but I would guess 90 plus % of the peoples that contribute or vote for the things their wishy washy feelings mandate they try and fix, will never in their lives see or witness any thing that comes to pass...Not even some thing as small a thing as visiting the back country of Yellowstone or any back country for that matter past a camping site next to a road!!!

 

[1_pointer]

True, but in a representative republic in this day and age of litigation things are not just a 'local thing'. I agree that management should be made by trained professionals with intimate knowledge of the area. But, money and votes can and do make alot of the decisions. Plus, who or what decides is 'mismanagement'??? I can bet that we can get at least a dozen different definitions of mismanagement for most any issue discussed here in SI! This makes the point that for successful natural resource management one must balance three things: 1. Societal demands/needs 2. Ecological health 3. Economic demands/needs. There has to be balance of ALL three for long term successful management. All too often one side prefers favoring #2 over #3 and vice-versa, which is one of the biggest reasons for debate on this forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What happens to the natural resources to the peoples that live out of the 'regions' from which they are taken, shouldn't have much if any say of what goes on in rural America. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You got me confused there?

 

[Lostagain]

The pendulem swings from extreme to extreme. It's called progress, rape and pillage, or whatever you want to convince "your" followers.
1P says there are too many people on this earth. Some others are saying that there should be less people in the western wild states, so I guess we have to move or be snuffed out again.

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr said, "shouldn't have much if any say of what goes on in rural America. These people neither understand any thing they are donating their dollars or voting for. The public is a fickle thing and shouldn't be addressing management issues.."

Thats a load of crap.

Do the people who "live out of the region" not pay their share of taxes? Do their tax dollars not support public lands management, or "mismanagement"? What makes people like you ELKCHSR, think you understand things any better? Because you live in Anaconda? Thats a laugh.

What the hell gives some honyocker who lives in MT, ID, or anywhere else in the West more of a say in PUBLIC LANDS MANAGEMENT decisions than someone who lives in West Virginia, Maine, or Florida?

Maybe all the smart assed Westerners who seem to think they have all the answers should stop taking the buttloads of federal dollars they receive (from the PUBLIC) each year for everything under the sun, (public lands management, highways, schools, etc. etc. etc.) If the Westerners want absolute rights to control Federal Lands Management, I suggest they purchase it from the Feds, and FUND the management of the lands they buy...until then, I strongly urge all tax payers to educate themselves and comment on public lands management. When I fund something, I want the right to have a voice in the decision making process. How many people would invest a lot of money in a business venture without having a say in how things are run? Only the dumbbells I guess....

The public absolutely does have, and should have, the right to comment, lobby, and pass laws any way they see fit to manage the land thats held in public trust. Its their land and their money funding what goes on.

 

[1_pointer]

An aside on Buzz's post, I was told of an article in the local paper stating that UT recieved over $2 for back from the federal gov. for ever $1 paid in. Conversely, CA recieves $0.77 for every $1 paid in.

 

[dgibson]

I'll have to think on that for a minute, 1_p, but I'm not sure that's entirely valid logic. I'm sure that it's factually true, but California also has umpteen times the tax-paying population that Utah does. So it depends on what you use as your base of comparison...I could just as easily say that CA gets eleventy-million dollars a year from the Feds but Utah only gets half that (no I don't have real figures).

Regardless of percentages, I agree with the sentiment that the western states get everyone's dollars to fund the forests and therefore everyone should have a say.

 

[Muledeer4me]

"Can anyone tell me why we shouldn't do everything possible to increase the top activity (hunting and fishing) in the third largest industry in the state?"

I think thats a question you need to ask some of the org. you have posted support for here on this board.
As a hunter I see no reason we shouldn't do everything possible to keep increasing the hunting & fishing indrustry.
At the same time I see it as stupid for anyone to support groups that have an anti-hunting /anti-multiple use policy.
"Keep voting for all those anti F&G politicians and you'll actually hurt the Idaho economy. That's why I get so disgusted with posters here who have no idea how their representatives vote on F&G issues. They really have to be stupid to keep electing their worst enemies"

It's no different then how disgusted some of us get over poster's that seem to have no idea how they are helping the anti-hunter's get a foot in the door by being supportive of groups that have an anti-hunting anti-use agenda.