Thoughts on this bailout and “stimulus”?

[ignorethefringes]

My guess is that in 30 years you will have much more perspective on the ups and downs that comes with being lower-middle to middle class (even if you rise above that financially you will see/know others who do not). Layoffs, recessions, family health. Lots of curves/dips in the road.

That's why I referred to myself as a snot nosed brat at 21 lol. (not a slight at @rjthehunter at all) Life is so much simpler at that age almost no matter the circumstances. Throw in a couple kids, a life emergency or two, a recession (LOL) and things get a lot more complicated. It's part of the reason I'd be ok raising the voting age to 25 or so (oh, uh, sorry about throwing that in there )

 

[LopeHunter]

Two-income household here. Have been married since our late 20s. Have been only three years where we had a negative cash flow as a household. There were two years where I went to grad school full-time and then 15 years after that was one year where I had an appendix split then spent a good part of the summer in ICU where at about Week 4 I got Last Rights due to sepsis then somehow turned the sepsis around. So, two of those three years of negative cash flow were by choice. One was not. That leaves other 29 years of positive cash flow which were the result of careful planning, commitment to the plan, hard work using skills in demand and a lot of time spent apart from the spouse as we both had up to 70% business travel some years.

That said, some surviver's bias here. And, even comparing my wife to me shows we were dealt two very different hands in life.

My wife worked to pay her way through college to earn engineering degree and still had debt when I met her. Her parents were loving but not able to help substantially post-high school.

I had the silver spoon parents that became successful by the time I entered high school so with their generous financial support (and high expectation I would graduate with honor's) I had no debt upon graduation. Also, I am a white male in America with overall good health. I presume I have had very few hurdles as advanced through my career. I know I have worked hard yet also know I caught a lot of breaks I likely did not fully earn and some I do not even realize I got.

My point is we do not all get dealt the same hand in life as are born, as are graduating high school, as go through our 20s, etc. Those of us who are successful, who have safety nets, who have built wealth, live within our means, etc., have some survivor's bias that needs to make us a bit more humble when taking a snapshot of anyone else's life. I am the first to admit some of the credit to my success is more than my hard work. If I was in grad school when a pandemic hit and the job market tanked when we had just one wage earner then may have been a much tougher path for me the past few decades. I got lucky in that way.

I manage a few people that are younger. Some are college graduates, some are not. Some are single. Some are married and the only bread-winner by design. I coach employees not only on work but also life. Some decisions I see made create added stress (buying new car vs. used car) and I chime in. Some are coachable, some less so. In the trenches, I see how luck can play a part as well as planning. Keeps me a bit more humble about my ability to figure out life and do well the past few decades.

 

[Doublecluck]

Hopefully the effect is positive, and oddly we haven't seen the consequences, even minimally. I don't think anyone has a solid explanation on why the Fed can create $4Trillon out of thin air and buy bonds and inflation remains practically nonexistent.

For the sake of staying on topic I’m not gonna elaborate in that.

I sincerely hope that any bailouts go to the People who need it most and they use it wisely in this time. I sincerely hope that in 3 months I’m not one of the folks needing a check to help me out. I’ve been poor and never wanted to be given anything , just the chance to work hard and get compensated fairly.

That said,

last year I sent out 2 1099’s 76,000 and 101,000, paid one guy 78,000 and a part time college kid 34,000. Receipts spent on lodging,fuel,supplies around 53,000 in local Montana businesses.

Hopefully we can get back to those days when this all over.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think instead of giving everyone a $1000 check and blowing up the debt even more, relief should be funneled through unemployment insurance. Granted a lot of people in the food service industry live on tips, but I think unemployment can take that in account. JMO though.

I think that's a much better way of doing things. Get the help to those who actually need it, versus those who will pocket it and keep on keeping on. There should be accommodations made for folks in the gig economy as well, since they're either filing as llc's or indepdent contractors and may not have the luxury of UI.

As for Amazon - they're one of the highest turnover employers in the nation. Adding a few shekels a week won't stop that. The working conditions are less than ideal.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

So here's a new point of view. I'm 22, just about to finish college, and working a full time job. Who are the people working a full time job making minimum wage? I don't know anyone whose making minimum wage. The labor force is at a point now where you couldn't find a job at minimum wage around here due to the shortage of workers. IF someone had a minimum wage job I would say "Hey why don't you apply here? They're hiring at 14$/hr with no experience? Maybe you don't like the work as much but if you're struggling that hard then it's worth it.

Being 22 with lots of expenses including student loans, monthly rent, truck payment, phone, internet, utilities, insurance, etc. I've still managed to save enough money to get by 2 months without working. Granted my monthly expenses are much less than someone mentioned above. People should have money saved as a just in case. What if your car breaks down and it's going to cost 2k to get it fixed? What happens then? I have money saved as an emergency fund, in case I get sick and can't work for 2 weeks again. Thankfully my truck is almost payed off now which will reduce my monthly expenses.

Maybe it's just being in the construction industry that I see ample jobs for everyone. Right this second if 20 of you came here and asked me for a job, you would be employed at above $14/hr with enough work to do 90 hours a week if you wanted. There is at least 10 other companies like the one I work for that would do the same thing in a heartbeat.

All the more reason to teach trades in High School. Learn a trade and you can work in any state.

As far as the "free" money goes, I don't need it. But I'm not going to turn it down. I'll just put it towards some loans. Definitely not giving it away since I'm gonna be paying for it anyway.

Who... most of my neighbors.

I think it's important to differential between the literal minimum wage, and a living wage as well. $14 an hour in Minnesota may be decent, pretty horrific if you live in one of the metros around our country, and a huge part of our population is in those areas and make less.

$160,000 gets you a tiny one bedroom in Aurora, in a shitty neighborhood. $400,000 gets you a two bedroom in Stapleton which is a good neighborhood but certainly not great. A three bedroom house closer to downtown will be well over 1MM.

Prior to the virus, Denver was shutting down public transit lines because they couldn't get driver's I

I've had it very good, but over the years I've had some eye opening experience that make me more reticent to cast stones or project my reality onto others.

 

[Big Fin]

For posing a question on whether a shutdown could be politically motivated? That's called open discussion.

In the context of this thread, it is called "trolling."

If you have those suspicions and that is the lens through which you see these kind of issues, go post such on your Facebook page, not here.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I think that's a much better way of doing things. Get the help to those who actually need it, versus those who will pocket it and keep on keeping on. There should be accommodations made for folks in the gig economy as well, since they're either filing as llc's or indepdent contractors and may not have the luxury of UI.

As for Amazon - they're one of the highest turnover employers in the nation. Adding a few shekels a week won't stop that. The working conditions are less than ideal.

Yes, and it's important to recognize that unemployment insurance is not doled out as welfare. The unemployment insurance premium is paid by the employer and based on the size of payroll. The system was established to assist the worker laid off through no fault of their own and designed to help them survive a period of unemployment during which they are to be seeking new employment.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I am not trying to tell anyone or sell anyone on whether or not they should donate to the church or to save for their kids college fund. (Both of which I think are admirable contributions as an adult).
I think if it came down to it for me I would make sure I first and foremost had my family protected by saving up enough money to keep a roof over their head. Then worry about the rest and enjoy life. Saving for things as I go and adding to the 6 month emergency fund as much as I could.

Getting back to the bailout and my thoughts, I feel it should have some pretty serious guardrails regarding who gets the money, how much money, and for what reason. If the guardrails are appropriate and the bailout for Americans truly is necessary to prevent a collapse of the economy and we have no other choices then I guess we will let somebody in government make that decision.

 

[JLS]

This is an interesting thread, and is certainly channeling some anger.

I am very concerned for small businesses. I think there is a very high degree of social responsibility in how one uses their check. Tear it up if it makes you feel better (realize you are just screwing those around you to make a point).

Donate it to a cause. Give it to your neighbor. Buy food for doctors, ambulance crews or truck drivers (@Jasher meant in all sincerity).

Don’t be fiscally irresponsible, and if you need it for mortgage or rent, use it for such. We’ll use ours to try and keep the local eateries afloat during these tough times, and keep our used cars fixed up and running.

 

[bushman13]

I don't care to question the opinions of most of the people left on FB. I do care about hunters and their opinions. Therefore I will always question the official narratives. It's done out of love. ❤

In the context of this thread, it is called "trolling."

If you have those suspicions and that is the lens through which you see these kind of issues, go post such on your Facebook page, not here.

 

[Ben Lamb]

This is an interesting thread, and is certainly channeling some anger.

I am very concerned for small businesses. I think there is a very high degree of social responsibility in how one uses their check. Tear it up if it makes you feel better. Donate it to a cause. Give it to your neighbor.

Don’t be fiscally irresponsible, and if you need it for mortgage or rent, use it for such. Well use ours to try and keep the local eateries afloat due these tough times, and keep our used cars fixed up and running.

Shoulda bought a ford.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Interesting article from the Atlantic that has shifted my thoughts a little bit:

The Fed Did Not Just ‘Spend’ $1.5 Trillion

Despite criticism from the left, there’s a strong progressive case for the Fed’s actions.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[JLS]

Shoulda bought a ford.

LOL it’s the Volvo and the Subaru. The Tundra repairs itself with every mile driven.

 

[rjthehunter]

$14/hr translates to a $28,000 salary. That isn't even a living wage by most standards. Telling someone they can work 80hr/wk and make $56k isn't really a solution. This is the problem economists have been trying to solve for the last decade. You want people to make enough money to have some discretionary income to spend on other things, and have the time to spend it.

Yes, 14 would be difficult to survive on. But working 80hr weeks would be closer to 73k a year with overtime. But what I'm getting at is that people working for minimum wage are stuck there for no ones fault but their own. Why isn't working 80 hrs a week a solution? Lots of our work is seasonal. The guys who put in 80 to 90 hours a week work 6-7 days a week for 4 months during the season then take winters off or work 1 to 2 days a week.

The point of all of this is to show that people can make more than minimum wage. If you're being paid poorly, it's likely due to a job that doesn't require any skill. Learn a new job that pays well and take off.

Who... most of my neighbors.

I think it's important to differential between the literal minimum wage, and a living wage as well. $14 an hour in Minnesota may be decent, pretty horrific if you live in one of the metros around our country, and a huge part of our population is in those areas and make less.

$160,000 gets you a tiny one bedroom in Aurora, in a shitty neighborhood. $400,000 gets you a two bedroom in Stapleton which is a good neighborhood but certainly not great. A three bedroom house closer to downtown will be well over 1MM.

Prior to the virus, Denver was shutting down public transit lines because they couldn't get driver's I

I've had it very good, but over the years I've had some eye opening experience that make me more reticent to cast stones or project my reality onto others.

Agreed that it's all based on where you live. 14$/hr around here would probably be considered high for most people around here. I've heard classmates talk about making $12. I've worked up to my current wage based on experience. I'm not afraid to leave a company that isn't going to pay me what I'm worth. It sounds kind of shitty when I read it back but it's true.

In my field, there is a pretty basic standard that companies hire graduates at. Note that most of these graduates have little to no actual experience in these fields. I'm content at my current job but knew I could do better. I threw my resume out to a bigger company and interviewed with them twice. I was pretty firm with my requirements/requests to the company before they made me any offer. I was offered a job starting out at 10k more than what most of my classmates have accepted. Brought the information back to where I'm currently working and said here's my situation. They didn't want to match it so I settled on a lesser number. Once I graduate, my girlfriend and I will be moving 2.5 hours from here to start a new career at 20k/year more than my current position.

I've had it pretty good since moving out on my own but I don't have a family to support either. I'm working for myself and my expensive hobbies lol.
I see those who are now in trouble and feel for them. I don't want anyone to lose their job whether they're making 20k a year or 200k a year. I think this is all being blown out of proportion and everything will likely return to normal in a couple months.

 

[JLS]

When I was 22 I had the world figured out as well. I hope its always so easy, and I really do mean that.

 

[RobG]

I think a good case could be made that we shouldn't be bailing out airlines, banks, or people that can't set aside an emergency fund. Moral hazard doesn't only apply to corporations. However, the rule book probably needs to be thrown out on this one because the government is the one shutting down the jobs, albeit for a very good reason. I hope they will do their best to put the money where it is really needed, but people also need to keep in mind if businesses fail en mass there will be no jobs when this is over.

 

[BlakeA]

@rjthehunter , eventually life will hit you in the face and you will then understand that putting everyone in the same boat is extremely foolish.

 

[stevejfarms]

We all know people who don't live within their means, and we all know people that do. There are definitely people who need assistance to get through this for the public good. I heard the story yesterday of a single mother of 3 who has tested positive for covid-19 and is continuing to work. Her reasoning? Her kids have to eat. I don't believe large corporations eg. the airlines, should be bailed out. The market will provide for all large businesses in the long run. While I support means testing for any assistance I fear bureaucracy would slow the process to the point of it being too late. I believe both sides are in a race to buy votes for the upcoming election, to hell with the cost. If you don't need the help, please send it back or give it to someone or an organization that does.
We have a responsibility to our children and grandchildren who will be paying for it.

 

[MTelkHuntress]

My parents own a small business and I'm extremely worried on what's going to happen. Not only for them but also the one employee they have. They have been trying to grow the business for years but renting or buying a building is extremely expensive. Finding another employee has been a challenge in it of itself.
I hope more people have the same sentiment to spend their money locally because it really makes a difference. I think as well for the most part, local businesses really do care about their employees and that makes a huge difference. I know my parents helped buy a computer for their employee so his kids could do their homework and I even helped out tutoring them. They even put him in touch with the right people so he was able to buy a house. I know for people in similar situations like his, the extra money can go pretty far with expenses. Everyone has different situations and struggles.

 

[idahohuntr]

I have mixed feelings on the use of stimulus checks to all Americans; but I think the suggestions to donate or ensure they are used to support small business by those who are fortunate enough to not need any such payment is a wonderful idea. I'm also not nearly as averse to the government stepping in to make loans to large businesses like airlines because those companies employ a huge number of people and if we can get them through this and ensure they repay their loans, I think we are all better off. We are all in this together, and much like the overwhelming patriotrism and kindness I witnessed after 9/11, I suspect the generosity and kindness displayed by this country will once again outweigh the divisiveness and negativity that grabs all the headlines; at least for a brief moment in time. What you see on the cable networks will not resemble the generosity you likely start to see in your hometown. I also think this is a great time for the hunters in this country to shine...how many of us have a freezer full of game meat and elderly or possibly soon to be unemployed neighbors? I'm putting some boxes of elk burger and jerky together now. I suspect if I get the opportunity to share these packages with those less fortunate it will be one of the more fulfilling things I get to do this year.