The non-resident Wilderness law…serious question…

[Knight.54]

Conversations like this are interesting. Some people see harm in them, but come on, sometimes they go pretty thought provoking places.

So let's just say there's someone out there who poses this question with the intent of assessing risk of going poaching in Wyoming. OP hasn't made this assertion in the slightest - they could just be curious as to what has happened to NRs who have been busted in the wilderness, so let's not get the pitchforks out quite yet.

There are many loose ends that come with ventures like these - would OP truly be cunning and fleet enough to tie them into neat little bows?

Let's look at some of these loose ends.

1) For funsies, let's say we've found out what the penalties are in various scenarios and decide they're worth it. Like the millionaire in NYC paying $150/day parking fines and the occasional tow - small price to pay for the best parking in the city, right? We're big budget poachers here so this is no issue. Plus, the primary deterrent in crime isn't penalty, it's assessing whether or not you'll be busted. You can read more about that if you'd like, but we'll be using the idea here.

2) We're NRs, though, and actually planning out how to carry out this mission is hard to do. E-scouting is about the only option we have in terms of determining locations, as we can't good and well ask locals to help us with our poaching holiday. Loose end needs some tying here. Too many opportunities to beef it and wind up in some area that gets a lot of warden attention. No point in poaching 10 miles in the back country if wardens are checking tags in trailhead parking lots.

3) Partners in crime. The further into the backcountry you go, and the bigger the animal you pursue, the more help you need. Accomplices are easily one of the loosest ends in the world of crime. You can't trust em as far as you can throw em, but they're necessary to completing complicated crimes. Especially really heavy ones that require making as few trips, and as few mistakes, as possible.

4) Covering tracks and making plausible alibis. This is some serious loose endage right here. Everyone can see your out of state plates - do you rent? People in rural America recognize locals, especially wardens. How do you avert their scrutiny?

It's hard to see how we can make a plan that would give us even above 1:2 odds of success. A lot of night movement would probably be involved, but cheapo night vision with the illuminators will make you just as obvious as if you had a flashlight on your head.

If we fleshed this out enough, we could have a screenplay for a movie about a group of very skillful poachers and the wardens who have to stay one step ahead. The outdoor crime thriller of the season! I think I'll just have my Oscar mailed to me though.

Nothing like stimulating a little good conversation…thought that’s what forums were for

 

[Treeshark]

I think the law is dumb. But even if there was a 99.99% chance I’d get away with it, the “what if I get caught?” thoughts would ruin it for me completely. I’m not cut out for a life of crime!

 

[Nick87]

I think the law is dumb. But even if there was a 99.99% chance I’d get away with it, the “what if I get caught?” thoughts would ruin it for me completely. I’m not cut out for a life of crime!

Looking over your shoulder the whole time would certainly ruin it for me. Some people I think are just the opposite.

 

[Hunting Wife]

I'm not saying it's not but there is an interesting parallel that says maybe there is potential for a change based on federal law.

Federal wildlife refuges can replace a state waterfowl law and its pretty common for this to happen in the states I've visited waterfowl hunting. Wyoming law about wilderness is actually backwards of that in that its the state regulating a federal area of land.

State laws apply to federal land all the time. What laws do you typically follow when hunting BLM, or Forest Service?

The power to establish more restrictive regulations on National Wildlife Refuges was granted to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service by Congress, so that isn’t really an apples to apples comparison. In no reading I’ve ever done of the Wilderness Act has Congress barred the states from enacting more restrictive laws for Wilderness.

 

[TheGreek]

A guy by the name of Keiran O'Brien got ticketed back in the day and the law went up to the WY Supreme Court which narrowly upheld the law.

Wyoming Has a Wilderness Problem

Nonresident hunters are required to hire a guide to access Wyoming's wilderness. Courts say it's legal. But is it equitable?

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[Straight Arrow]

WY Supreme Court which narrowly upheld the law.

Narrowly? He won or he lost the case. Close applies only to hand grenades or horse shoes.

 

[Dakotakid]

Looks like
(a) Except as provided in subsection (c) of this section, any person violating any provision of this act is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000.00).

+ loss of privileges for up to 5 years

 

[kansasdad]

If you are not a resident of Wyoming, you cannot hunt in wilderness areas within the state without a guide. The law is stated as follows at Section 23-2-401:

“No nonresident shall hunt big or trophy game animals on any designated wilderness area, as defined by federal or state law, in this state unless accompanied by a licensed professional guide or a resident guide.”



The statute requires that at least one licensed professional guide or resident guide accompany every two nonresident hunters. (The commission may allow up to six nonresident hunters per licensed guide in specific areas.) Under the law, the gaming commission has the authority to specify other areas of the state and certain big or trophy game species for which nonresident hunters need guides.

​

@2rocky (and others) this causes me to question how are small game hunters treated by this law?

I know I can hike, camp, fish, bird watch in wilderness, what about hunting birds or even coyotes?

 

[Deleted member 16014]

I've passed along info about some breakers of this rule to a warden at a trailhead after coming down. I wouldn't have ever known or asked the hunters, but they were parading around in the middle of a good deer patch, so we were just chatting trying to figure out where they were going to be hunting. The warden gathered that data and was certainly keen on details, not sure how it played out. I didn't report a pair a few years earlier, but they were hiking out looking like drowned rats; they had clearly had their asses handed to them by the mountains. Had nothing to do with "wilderness" but were just not prepared for that kind of terrain.

Probably an aside, and maybe you should be skeptical of this info coming from a WY resident...but I've hunted quite a bit of both and I think many would be surprised how much pressure there is in the wilderness areas; at least stuff within striking distance for backpackers. For me that's roughly <10mi for deer and <6mi for elk.

There are exceptions where you can get some solitude, but not much if any more than non-wilderness. Don't get me wrong, if I was an NR I'd want access to that country too, but it's not a booner preserve.

 

[Straight Arrow]

@2rocky (and others) this causes me to question how are small game hunters treated by this law?

I know I can hike, camp, fish, bird watch in wilderness, what about hunting birds or even coyotes?

"big or trophy game animals" seems pretty clear.

 

[BuzzH]

@2rocky (and others) this causes me to question how are small game hunters treated by this law?

I know I can hike, camp, fish, bird watch in wilderness, what about hunting birds or even coyotes?

Applies to big and trophy game only...you can bird hunt, trap, predator hunt.

Its a crap law, it really is. But, so is AK with their laws that require guides for brown bear, sheep, and goat.

 

[seeth07]

Did this law stem from an age where it maybe was a legit reason that having someone inexperienced in those areas could have resulted in incidents?

 

[Jdp010]

I suggest one NR youth as the ideal defendant on this one. The younger, the better.

I suspect the GoFundMe account will be healthy enough to more than cover both dad and youth.

I recommend just one youth tagholder and one parent (no tag). Why dilute the GoFundMe account across four defendants like is occurring with the 4 Missourians in the corner crossing case.

Yes, I am suggesting that someone use a child to break a nonsensical law to hopefully affect change.

PM me if you are the NR father with an 11-12 yo NR child who is willing to make this happen in 2023. I think I can get your NR child in to a NR group app in 2023 for a guaranteed WY GEN elk tag.

 

[Wildabeest]

Nothing like stimulating a little good conversation…thought that’s what forums were for

 

[BAKPAKR]

I suggest one NR youth as the ideal defendant on this one. The younger, the better.

I suspect the GoFundMe account will be healthy enough to more than cover both dad and youth.

I recommend just one youth tagholder and one parent (no tag). Why dilute the GoFundMe account across four defendants like is occurring with the 4 Missourians in the corner crossing case.

Yes, I am suggesting that someone use a child to break a nonsensical law to hopefully affect change.

PM me if you are the NR father with an 11-12 yo NR child who is willing to make this happen in 2023. I think I can get your NR child in to a NR group app in 2023 for a guaranteed WY GEN elk tag.

Would you be ticked off if I chickened out after my daughter drew a WY GEN tag with the help of your group?

 

[brockel]

Did this law stem from an age where it maybe was a legit reason that having someone inexperienced in those areas could have resulted in incidents?

Helps the outfitting business. If that were the case you couldn’t hike or fish in the wilderness without a guide. But you can

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

So I’ve got a question about the Wilderness law in Wyoming regarding non-residents, does anyone one here know of people who have been prosecuted under this law and if so what was the penalty?

Just call and ask the G&F

 

[blueridge]

This is exactly why I’ve been kissing Buzz’s butt on here so much lately

Get in line, man. I’ve been waiting on an invite from Uncle Buzz for a couple years now. Says the connection is dubious, suspect, or something.

@texwest44 , I like the way you think! Did we meet in Huntsville??

 

[Flatbrimmer]

Hmmm....so it's ok to break the law if chances are good you won't get caught?

Risk vs reward.. duhh

 

[Flatbrimmer]

Conversations like this are interesting. Some people see harm in them, but come on, sometimes they go pretty thought provoking places.

So let's just say there's someone out there who poses this question with the intent of assessing risk of going poaching in Wyoming. OP hasn't made this assertion in the slightest - they could just be curious as to what has happened to NRs who have been busted in the wilderness, so let's not get the pitchforks out quite yet.

There are many loose ends that come with ventures like these - would OP truly be cunning and fleet enough to tie them into neat little bows?

Let's look at some of these loose ends.

1) For funsies, let's say we've found out what the penalties are in various scenarios and decide they're worth it. Like the millionaire in NYC paying $150/day parking fines and the occasional tow - small price to pay for the best parking in the city, right? We're big budget poachers here so this is no issue. Plus, the primary deterrent in crime isn't penalty, it's assessing whether or not you'll be busted. You can read more about that if you'd like, but we'll be using the idea here.

2) We're NRs, though, and actually planning out how to carry out this mission is hard to do. E-scouting is about the only option we have in terms of determining locations, as we can't good and well ask locals to help us with our poaching holiday. Loose end needs some tying here. Too many opportunities to beef it and wind up in some area that gets a lot of warden attention. No point in poaching 10 miles in the back country if wardens are checking tags in trailhead parking lots.

3) Partners in crime. The further into the backcountry you go, and the bigger the animal you pursue, the more help you need. Accomplices are easily one of the loosest ends in the world of crime. You can't trust em as far as you can throw em, but they're necessary to completing complicated crimes. Especially really heavy ones that require making as few trips, and as few mistakes, as possible.

4) Covering tracks and making plausible alibis. This is some serious loose endage right here. Everyone can see your out of state plates - do you rent? People in rural America recognize locals, especially wardens. How do you avert their scrutiny?

It's hard to see how we can make a plan that would give us even above 1:2 odds of success. A lot of night movement would probably be involved, but cheapo night vision with the illuminators will make you just as obvious as if you had a flashlight on your head.

If we fleshed this out enough, we could have a screenplay for a movie about a group of very skillful poachers and the wardens who have to stay one step ahead. The outdoor crime thriller of the season! I think I'll just have my Oscar mailed to me though.

I like the way you think, partner. Lol