Spring Bears With Hounds Proposed

[thusby]

"Guard the gate" started by bear hunting magazine is pretty powerful perspective. We all need to fully support bear hunting by traditional means. Traditional means are dictated by the terrain you hunt to effectively meet quota and hunter satisfaction. Bait and hounds are mandatory in some areas and unnecessary in others. Whatever you go for, make sure you got everyone with you.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Good point about the necessary technical skills. It can be argued that just about anyone can walk into the field or over water with a Lab and do okay. A lot more goes into the mix getting a bunch of hounds ready and doing it right. While even an amateur hunter and not so great bird dog will seldom be much of a nuisance to other game or hunters, I suspect the same could not be said for a badly trained pack of hounds. Perhaps the other hunter conflict factor is the thinking behind a spring vs fall hunt?

One point that has been neglected so far is the big difference between hound hunting cats vs bears. Cats almost always go to tree. Many large bears cannot climb. We know one of the effects of global warming has been a significant increase in average bear size. When I was growing up in Montana a two hundred pound black bear was very large. A five hundred pounder was phenomenal. My dad sent me a clipping when I was in the Army in the seventies about a seven hundred pounder shot just across the border in BC. It was considered a weird genetic mutant with giant genes (though they had no genetic testing in those days to prove it). Nowadays seven hundred pounders are being reported every year. Several years ago north of town here a pulp truck killed one 770 lbs. I have seen a couple of dump dwellers with guts dragging on the ground that had to be well over 600 lbs. With global warming fewer old bears are dying in their dens and bears in general are going into hibernation with more fat and emerging earlier with more retained fat. That means they don't have to start building fat from point zero like the old days. They just keep getting fatter year after year. Here we are DEFINATELY seeing much larger bears than when I arrived in 1989. And more bears in general. So chasing these ground bound whoppers with dogs is not nearly as "humane" as chasing cats. No cornered bruiser bruin is going to be sleeping when the hunter catches up to his dogs! Not a nice situation for either bears or dogs.

If/when black bear numbers become a problem, I would support baiting over hounds, without hesitation. I don't consider baiting hunting but it is an extremely effective management tool. It is fairly deadly, has a greater potential for humane dispatch, less stress on the game, and sex/parental selection is much better than spot and stalk. Not my thing but it gets rid of bears. Baiting them in culvert traps and euthanizing or shooting one on a bait barrel from a tree stand ... no difference, except that the bear on the barrel dies quicker. Both get rid of bears with bait.

 

[Desk Pop]

Global warming is not causing bears to get so fat they cannot climb. Bears that do not climb do so by choice and I believe it is out of pride. They would rather die fighting than submit to the hounds. It is because they are badass animals that deserve the upmost respect, not because they are too fat to climb a tree. Whether you agree with hound hunting bears or not, don't take that dignity from them. Those bears a fckin warriors and incredible trophies.

Bear bay-ups are awesome...not common, but some of the pinnacles I have had of hunting over 60 species if big game on four continents, including three of the Big 5. Hunting bears without the possibility of a bay up would be like hunting Cape buffalo without the chance of a charge. The fact that it is a possibility makes it exciting. The dogs love bay-ups. The ones that don't just run away, so win-win, room for all. Hounds that stick with a bad bear are some of the most amazing creatures on Earth.

 

[runningmt]

This is where I'm at, being in Billings most of the bear hunters are going to the Pryors or Beartooths, bet it is 8 out of 10. Sure some will venture further to say Paradise Valley the Crazies Snowies Castles whatever. There's TONS of competing road hunters and spot and stalk guys going to "their" one spot. Adding say an extra 10 houndsman with hunters cause let's be honest the first few that get caught unless they have cubs aren't getting turned away from. While the beartooths are one of the largest and most diverse areas in the state. The limited accesses in the spring I don't think could sustain it.....

Every main drainage would be a shit show.....

Then I am at the firm belief there's lots of wanna be houndsman, the real ones know what it takes. Lots don't.

Acute opinion. This would be a major change. Not a good one.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Lots of food for thought. I currently think the potential fallout from grizzly/ hound interactions will have a greater long term negative effect than the positives of increase opportunity. If that concern is mitigated, I won’t have heartburn if it passes.
I do predict the necessity of going to a permit in areas where hounds would be allowed due to the increase in harvest.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Global warming is not causing bears to get so far they cannot climb. Bears that do not climb do so by choice and I believe it is out of pride. They would rather die fighting than submit to the hounds. It is because they are badass animals that deserve upmost respect, not because they are too fat to climb a tree. Whether you don't agree with hound hunting bears or not, don't take that dignity from them. Those bears a fckin warriors and incredible trophies.

Bear bay-ups are awesome...not common, but some of the pinnacles I have had of hunting over 60 species if big game on four continents, including three of the Big 5. Hunting bears without the possibility of a bay up would be like hunting Cape buffalo without the chance of a charge. The fact that it is a possibility makes it exciting. The dogs love bay-ups. The ones that don't just run away, so win-win, room for all. Hounds that sticks with a bad bear are some of the most amazing creatures on Earth.

Well, the thrill of watching dogs and bears fight was outlawed in England and everywhere in America a long time ago and for good reason. It's sick entertainment. Like dog fighting and @#)(# fighting. When it comes time to battle for preserving hound hunting in Idaho, I would advise staying clear of the animal conflict thrill factor.

I had to deal with a cape buffalo charge but I can assure you it was absolutely undesirable. It is a good thing the herd was 120 yds away when I dropped my animal with a heart shot. The boss was a very bad apple. He charged us three times. My object was to take a fine specimen humanely. In fact, I don't recall getting excited at all. I can also assure you that if I'd told my PH to arrange for me to shoot a charging buff, he would have given me a refund and ride to the airport. Bad situations come up all the time. It's why they call it dangerous game. But sending dogs after animals to create a dangerous situation purely for your enjoyment ... sorry, I don't agree with that.

 

[Nick87]

Oh FFS

 

[EYJONAS!]

Well, the thrill of watching dogs and bears fight was outlawed in England and everywhere in America a long time ago and for good reason. It's sick entertainment. Like dog fighting and @#)(# fighting. When it comes time to battle for preserving hound hunting in Idaho, I would advise staying clear of the animal conflict thrill factor.

I had to deal with a cape buffalo charge but I can assure you it was absolutely undesirable. It is a good thing the herd was 120 yds away when I dropped my animal with a heart shot. The boss was a very bad apple. He charged us three times. My object was to take a fine specimen humanely. In fact, I don't recall getting excited at all. I can also assure you that if I'd told my PH to arrange for me to shoot a charging buff, he would have given me a refund and ride to the airport. Bad situations come up all the time. It's why they call it dangerous game. But sending dogs after animals to create a dangerous situation purely for your enjoyment ... sorry, I don't agree with that.

Clearly you've never had the pleasure of hunting with tracking hounds. Which is fine some people do some people don't. If you had though, you would know that based on the last sentence in your statement is completely false. From the moment they leave their house till they come home they know what's at risk they've been there done that. They know it could be the last dump they make on a track for a number of reasons. I haven't been around a lot but I know a few and their first and foremost deal every time is the dog safety, then others, then theirs. A true Houndsman is a dieing breed, somewhat like dedicated trappers. They have a love and admiration for the sport some people get it some don't.

 

[mtmuley]

A true Houndsman is a dieing breed, somewhat like dedicated trappers. They have a love and admiration for the sport some people get it some don't.

And there is an assault on both. mtmuley

 

[Valley1320]

Hey OntarioHunter you never did answer my question. About if you had ever hunted bear or cat behind hounds

 

[OntarioHunter]

Hey OntarioHunter you never did answer my question. About if you had ever hunted bear or cat behind hounds

No. Neither have I gambled at a casino, gone to a strip club, attended a NASCAR race, or swallowed detergent capsules. Some things I already know I would not enjoy. Like bears and dogs fighting.

 

[DouglasR]

Can’t believe I missed this one.
made it to page 5 before tldr.

mt lions will just be like F-you dogs and go to sleep while they’re treed?
That’s so badass.

This prob sounds F’d up, I love my cat, but I’d love to go on a mt lion hunt just to get close to one and see how they act and look in person.
Again, this is weird to say, but I love seeing them treed up in a snowy pine over dogs in videos.
They just look like giant house cats looking down at idiot dogs like “wtf leave me alone”

Idk if I could pull the trigger, but I’d definitely go.
and def eat some
Such a cool animal.

 

[BuzzH]

Watching good hounds work a track and run a lion is a pretty neat experience, have done it a handful of times. Following the tracks and seeing how they work is something else. The dedication the dogs have is also impressive.

Its not about just killing a lion...at all.

 

[Nick87]

Watching good hounds work a track and run a lion is a pretty neat experience, have done it a handful of times. Following the tracks and seeing how they work is something else. The dedication the dogs have is also impressive.

Its not about just killing a lion...at all.

Goes for any kind of hunting with a dog, hound retriever, pointer etc. Imo. A good dog in its element is amazing to watch.

 

[Nick87]

Neither have I gambled at a casino, gone to a strip club, attended a NASCAR race, or swallowed detergent capsules. Some things I already know I would not enjoy. Like bears and dogs fighting.

I'm my cousins best man for his upcoming wedding in November he just happens to be a houndsman. I have been trying to decide what to do for his bachelor party. You pretty much just planned it out for me, thanks.

 

[Valley1320]

Watching good hounds work a track and run a lion is a pretty neat experience, have done it a handful of times. Following the tracks and seeing how they work is something else. The dedication the dogs have is also impressive.

Its not about just killing a lion...at all.

Exactly and well said!! Some other dude sending msgs on here about something he has never done cant catch on to that.

 

[Desk Pop]

Clearly you've never had the pleasure of hunting with tracking hounds. Which is fine some people do some people don't. If you had though, you would know that based on the last sentence in your statement is completely false. From the moment they leave their house till they come home they know what's at risk they've been there done that. They know it could be the last dump they make on a track for a number of reasons. I haven't been around a lot but I know a few and their first and foremost deal every time is the dog safety, then others, then theirs. A true Houndsman is a dieing breed, somewhat like dedicated trappers. They have a love and admiration for the sport some people get it some don't.

I agree. You have definitely spent some time around hound guys and understand the ethos.

I also agree on trappers. Trappers are complete badasses. Since becoming a houndsmen 10 years ago I have really grown in my woodsmanship skills at a rate much faster than before. But good trappers...those guys are the PhDs of woodsmanship. Unbelievable what they know and understand about the wild.

 

[Big Fin]

@IdahoNick is a great spokesman for hound hunters, the exact opposite of the groups I met when two different New Mexico elk hunts were impacted by bear hunters and their hounds. It was a cluster. We could hear trucks and dogs down below. Wasn't too long and the woods were full of barking hounds. Not sure if that impacted the elk we had seen in the area, but on both occasions, no elk were spotted when the bear hunting houndsmen were there.

That wasn't the real rub, as I've had to accommodate my hunts to respect the uses of a lot of different public land users; hikers, wood cutters, mountain bikers, etc. All comes with public lands being open to all of us.

The rub came with the first group being rather obnoxious and almost running us over as we walked down a road that had been gated. They were from out of state, as were we. I wasn't took keen on them driving around a gate, so as they drove past I asked them if they knew that this road was closed, to which they rambled on some BS about the "Forest Circus" and their opinion that roads shouldn't be closed. Not a good impression of bear hunting houndsmen, though I know a lot of lion hunting houndsmen in Montana. The second year was a similar outcome on that day's elk hunt, though I didn't have an encounter on a closed road.

On that second hunt, I did talk to some NM elk hunters at the trail head about the bear hunters. They commented that they are inundated with out-of-state houndsmen chasing bears. I would be interested to know if @Valley1320 has seen a lot of non-resident bear houndsmen in New Mexico, as was stated by the locals I talked to and pitched camp with on those hunts.

NM is mostly OTC for bear, all fall seasons, and that they are a place where guys with coon hounds, lion hounds, and whatever other houndsmen come to chase bears. This was northern NM. The locals seem to be getting fed up with the huge increase in non-resident bear hunting houndsmen coming during elk hunting seasons.

This was a few years back. Not sure if much has changed since then. I've not encountered bear hunting houndsmen in western or central NM.

Given how many hunters are on the Montana elk woods during elk season, a number far higher than NM, I am sure the experiences I had in NM will be repeated many times over during MT elk seasons, even if there are not many bear hunting houndsmen. At least if the hound hunting for bears is allowed as a fall hunt.

Some would say that it is selfish of elk hunters to not want bear hunting houndsmen in the woods with them in elk season. Maybe it is. From those experiences I mention, it seems that hound hunting for bears has more impact on the other hunters in the woods, than the other way around.

I admit to not being excited about this idea. Maybe I would get used to it and it would be no big deal.

I do know that if we are chasing bears with hounds (or baiting) without specific accommodations in known grizzly areas, we are serving up some home run pitches for the folks who want to continue using grizzlies as their cash cow. If this passes, I'll start a pool of how long it will be before use of hounds is mentioned in a lawsuit by the drive by litigators.

That said, we've been down this road before and it was voted down. We now have a freshman legislator who maybe he thinks we don't know what is best for ourselves.

 

[brymoore]

I haven’t read all of this thread - too many responses with most off topic.

I live in one of the heaviest bear hunted units in Idaho. Most hunters bait with a few trucks with dogs roaming the woods. There are great fights between the baiters and hounds men as hounds guy will run dogs past baits to find bears.

How does this bear hunting circus effect me? Not at all. I can always find a spot to myself. Both hound guys and baiters tend to stay on the road system. It’s not much effort on my part to hike up a hill to glass and have the world to myself.

 

[MTGomer]

@IdahoNick is a great spokesman for hound hunters, the exact opposite of the groups I met when two different New Mexico elk hunts were impacted by bear hunters and their hounds. It was a cluster. We could hear trucks and dogs down below. Wasn't too long and the woods were full of barking hounds. Not sure if that impacted the elk we had seen in the area, but on both occasions, no elk were spotted when the bear hunting houndsmen were there.

That wasn't the real rub, as I've had to accommodate my hunts to respect the uses of a lot of different public land users; hikers, wood cutters, mountain bikers, etc. All comes with public lands being open to all of us.

The rub came with the first group being rather obnoxious and almost running us over as we walked down a road that had been gated. They were from out of state, as were we. I wasn't took keen on them driving around a gate, so as they drove past I asked them if they knew that this road was closed, to which they rambled on some BS about the "Forest Circus" and their opinion that roads shouldn't be closed. Not a good impression of bear hunting houndsmen, though I know a lot of lion hunting houndsmen in Montana. The second year was a similar outcome on that day's elk hunt, though I didn't have an encounter on a closed road.

On that second hunt, I did talk to some NM elk hunters at the trail head about the bear hunters. They commented that they are inundated with out-of-state houndsmen chasing bears. I would be interested to know if @Valley1320 has seen a lot of non-resident bear houndsmen in New Mexico, as was stated by the locals I talked to and pitched camp with on those hunts.

NM is mostly OTC for bear, all fall seasons, and that they are a place where guys with coon hounds, lion hounds, and whatever other houndsmen come to chase bears. This was northern NM. The locals seem to be getting fed up with the huge increase in non-resident bear hunting houndsmen coming during elk hunting seasons.

This was a few years back. Not sure if much has changed since then. I've not encountered bear hunting houndsmen in western or central NM.

Given how many hunters are on the Montana elk woods during elk season, a number far higher than NM, I am sure the experiences I had in NM will be repeated many times over during MT elk seasons, even if there are not many bear hunting houndsmen. At least if the hound hunting for bears is allowed as a fall hunt.

Some would say that it is selfish of elk hunters to not want bear hunting houndsmen in the woods with them in elk season. Maybe it is. From those experiences I mention, it seems that hound hunting for bears has more impact on the other hunters in the woods, than the other way around.

I admit to not being excited about this idea. Maybe I would get used to it and it would be no big deal.

I do know that if we are chasing bears with hounds (or baiting) without specific accommodations in known grizzly areas, we are serving up some home run pitches for the folks who want to continue using grizzlies as their cash cow. If this passes, I'll start a pool of how long it will be before use of hounds is mentioned in a lawsuit by the drive by litigators.

That said, we've been down this road before and it was voted down. We now have a freshman legislator who maybe he thinks we don't know what is best for ourselves.

I’ve got some trail camera photos about 2 miles into Arizona that I’m pretty sure are NM bear hound hunters, during a time when the AZ season is closed. Maybe they are just guys that like to ride horses. With dogs with gps collars. That sniff places bears were standing a few minutes prior.