S. 1695: Human Powered Travel in Wilderness Act

[Durango Mike]

The effort and monetary entry level for pack horses is orders of magnitude higher than a mountain bike. This by there nature they limit the number of users.

The whole point of wilderness is to limit the use, not so much that you can't enjoy it, but enough so that it is hard to enjoy it.

Hmm I have seen a number of mountain bikes in carbon fiber that cost more than 2 pack horses (not counting care and feed), In Colorado horses have priority as a matter of courtesy and SAFETY for all involved. An interesting aside was a case in SW CO when a dirt biker came up on a guy leading a pack string and deliberately buzzed by throwing dirt on the guy and starting a little chaos, biker went on after some words and took off down the trail. The biker then turned around and started back, the pack string guy fired two shots in the air and the biker took off and called the sheriff, saying he was threatened, the outfitter did not deny firing "warning" shots and lost in court, convicted on menacing (I think a class 5 felony). The case turned on the fact that the biker was 75 yards away and not an immediate threat. He was told later that had he shot the guy when he was close, threatening spooking horses and getting him bucked off and made him in fear of his life he probably would not have been prosecuted.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Can you point specifically in the Wilderness Act that leads you to believe this? I'm not sure I agree here but I'm happy to look at where in the Wilderness Act you think this would fall.

This is not the first thread comprised of several pages of postulation regarding "personal powered" access to designated Wilderness by mechanical means. The reality is that if that opinioned definition of enjoyment for a "wide spectrum" of users were even remotely accepted by oversight authority and those truly familiar with the Wilderness Act ... then there would already be mechanization in the Wilderness and we would not be having this debate of opinions.
Let's get back to pie and a cup of !

 

[Deleted member 28227]

All of this talk of compromising...there was a time for that, it was 1964 and wilderness advocates did a metric shit-ton of compromising to get the tiny slice they did.

I'm not one bit interested in compromising on wilderness areas again. I don't care how close the front range wilderness areas are to Denver. I don't care if you have to drive somewhere else to ride your bike.

Find a different hobby, buy a pair of hiking boots instead of a bike, deal with it.

Buzz, say you get shoe horned into speaking at a public lands event. You get up on stage and notice some dude from a Mt. Biking group is there with his posse.

"Why should I care about Wilderness? I can't use it, just makes it super crowded and dangerous other places, I got kick my some dudes mule last year. Senator Lee says that if the state controlled the area they would build a trail system with hundreds of miles of trail. Isn't this just another example of DC folks not listening to locals, you wouldn't even let us look at if there were some wilderness areas that would be good for bikes"

What do you say?

- I agree with you on the topic, I just don't actually know what I would say to that guy...

 

[Hammsolo]

Yep:

Semenuk throwing it down. He’s amazing. I am an avid mountain biker. My buddies and I climb (or push) up anything to send it on crazy stuff. Bikes are so capable today. They shouldn’t be in wilderness. As someone that has ridden e-bikes, and watched friends, these are not mountain bikes. You can go up anything your skill can handle, and they can do a burnout.... keep their motors to their designated trails.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Buzz, say you get shoe horned into speaking at a public lands event. You get up on stage and notice some dude from a Mt. Biking group is there with his posse.

"Why should I care about Wilderness? I can't use it, just makes it super crowded and dangerous other places, I got kick my some dudes mule last year. Senator Lee says that if the state controlled the area they would build a trail system with hundreds of miles of trail. Isn't this just another example of DC folks not listening to locals, you wouldn't even let us look at if there were some wilderness areas that would be good for bikes"

What do you say?

- I agree with you on the topic, I just don't actually know what I would say to that guy...

Wilderness is about much more than just recreation. It's about abundant water for irrigators in the summer, it's about having places that animals aren't under constant stress. It's about clean air, high quality of life and knowing that we aren't so far abandoned from our primeval past that we need to develop everything. Wilderness is not simply land, it's part of our world that deserves to be treated better than other places, because it produces that clean air, water and wildlife we all need & cherish.

But let me ask you this - if we could find a way to increase single-tracks outside of wilderness, where Mtn Bikers have the ability to participate in their sport without picking on others, would you sit down and work that out with me?

But, let's say we do open it up. Who pays for the increase in maintenance that will be necessary? Who pays for increased fires that come with increased use, who pays for noxious weed management, trail maintenance & the extra Rangers it will take to police a multitude of people utilizing primitive country?

Rather than simply trying to pry open wilderness, let's sit down & find that better path forward, together, so that you get more & better trails, and wilderness isn't reduced to just a playground.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Wilderness is about much more than just recreation. It's about abundant water for irrigators in the summer, it's about having places that animals aren't under constant stress. It's about clean air, high quality of life and knowing that we aren't so far abandoned from our primeval past that we need to develop everything. Wilderness is not simply land, it's part of our world that deserves to be treated better than other places, because it produces that clean air, water and wildlife we all need & cherish.

But let me ask you this - if we could find a way to increase single-tracks outside of wilderness, where Mtn Bikers have the ability to participate in their sport without picking on others, would you sit down and work that out with me?

But, let's say we do open it up. Who pays for the increase in maintenance that will be necessary? Who pays for increased fires that come with increased use, who pays for noxious weed management, trail maintenance & the extra Rangers it will take to police a multitude of people utilizing primitive country?

Rather than simply trying to pry open wilderness, let's sit down & find that better path forward, together, so that you get more & better trails, and wilderness isn't reduced to just a playground.

Bravo

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Little known fact @Ben Lamb was the sec of the interior in the Jed Bartlet administration.

 

[Hammsolo]

A hard thing to imagine is the video makes the stuff look small. I am no pro, but an expert rider. It’s so hard to record the magnitude of these lines. Cam Zinc did an 80 foot drop back flip a few years ago. 80 feet! Can you imagine?!? ️

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz, say you get shoe horned into speaking at a public lands event. You get up on stage and notice some dude from a Mt. Biking group is there with his posse.

"Why should I care about Wilderness? I can't use it, just makes it super crowded and dangerous other places, I got kick my some dudes mule last year. Senator Lee says that if the state controlled the area they would build a trail system with hundreds of miles of trail. Isn't this just another example of DC folks not listening to locals, you wouldn't even let us look at if there were some wilderness areas that would be good for bikes"

What do you say?

- I agree with you on the topic, I just don't actually know what I would say to that guy...

I'd start by asking that guy a couple questions of my own.

1. Have you ever read the wilderness act and the history about it?
2. Do you realize the compromise that already happened with that bill?
3. Why CANT you use the wilderness just like everyone else, by nonmechanized means? Legs broken? Dont own shoes?

As to being kicked by a mule, maybe try common sense and courtesy on the trail. Try to work on your own solutions in "other places" where you and the mule had your incident, find solutions to those areas. How is opening areas to your bikes, where they're currently not allowed and mule/horse traffic IS allowed going to do anything but increase conflicts? The guys on mules and horses usually seek out the areas where bikes don't ride for a reason.

Finally, as per Ben Lambs post, there's a lot more about wilderness than just a potential playground for you and your posse.

All would be a waste of my time, as anyone that thought that little about anyone else to ask such selfish questions, has already made up their mind. They're looking for confirmation bias to support their agenda at that point, nothing I could say, even with a mountain of facts, would change their mind. They want what they already have, and now they want the rest too...its that simple.

In case you missed it, I'm flat done compromising on some issues...this is one near the top of that list.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Little known fact @Ben Lamb was the sec of the interior in the Jed Bartlet administration.

Well known fact, even in a fiction, I couldn't get senate confirmation.

 

[Ben Lamb]

All would be a waste of my time, as anyone that thought that little about anyone else to ask such selfish questions, has already made up their mind. They're looking for confirmation bias to support their agenda at that point, nothing I could say, even with a mountain of facts, would change their mind. They want what they already have, and now they want the rest too...its that simple.

One of the most important lessons in lobbying is that you must realize that you are not responding to just the person asking the question, you're speaking to everyone who is listening. That person may not be open to hear what you have to say, but the people to their right or left may be.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

One of the most important lessons in lobbying is that you must realize that you are not responding to just the person asking the question, you're speaking to everyone who is listening. That person may not be open to hear what you have to say, but the people to their right or left may be.

Yep... or the lurkers of the forum.

 

[Irrelevant]

One of the most important lessons in lobbying is that you must realize that you are not responding to just the person asking the question, you're speaking to everyone who is listening. That person may not be open to hear what you have to say, but the people to their right or left may be.

Nope. I'm with Buzz on this. There is zero need for other users to accommodate the growing mt bike crowd. They should seek to create their own legacy and their own accomplishments instead of seeking to take from others hard work.

 

[El Jason]

Nope. I'm with Buzz on this. There is zero need for other users to accommodate the growing mt bike crowd. They should seek to create their own legacy and their own accomplishments instead of seeking to take from others hard work.

I think you're missing Ben's point. To my understanding (which I certainly may be wrong), he isn't advocating they be accommodated. Rather, explain to them why they aren't being accommodated. Even if the folks with torches and pitchforks don't listen, those behind them might.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Key Lime or Pecan for me.

I figured you for apple (with cheese)

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think you're missing Ben's point. To my understanding (which I certainly may be wrong), he isn't advocating they be accommodated. Rather, explain to them why they aren't being accommodated. Even if the folks with torches and pitchforks don't listen, those behind them might.

 

[Irrelevant]

I think you're missing Ben's point. To my understanding (which I certainly may be wrong), he isn't advocating they be accommodated. Rather, explain to them why they aren't being accommodated. Even if the folks with torches and pitchforks don't listen, those behind them might.

Sure and I get that, but when a point starts with "But, let's say we do open it up." No, let's not say that, let's not even throw that out there as a maybe possible. That's a hard no. I have genuinely lost almost all respect for the mt bike crowd. I have never seen a more selfish group of human beings. And I don't mean to include anyone who rides a mt bike, hell I love riding mine. But the crowd that continues to build illegal trails, the crowd that never shows up at any of the conservation events, the crowd that only wants to take and never give back, those are the guys I'm talking about, and they're the ones I'm not negotiating with.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Yep... or the lurkers of the forum.

Nothing gets through to those animals.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Nothing gets through to those animals.

Oh yeah... you checked the sales on Cabot

 

[El Jason]

Sure and I get that, but when a point starts with "But, let's say we do open it up." No, let's not say that, let's not even throw that out there as a maybe possible.

Fair enough, I can see your point, and with enough beer could agree with you.