Range day. Strange results.

[rhipsher]

It's been quite a while. Nice day with a little wind but doable. Decided to shoot at 200 yards instead of 100 this time just to see where these two particular rifles I brought would do.
1.) Remington 700 SPS .300 WM with the Leupold VX2 3-9 X50mm scope.
2.) Sig Sauer 516 AR-15 with a Leupold VX-R 1.25-4 X 20mm HOG scope.
I fully expected the WM to dominate. And would have been happy if the AR-15 made it on the paper at 200 yards with minimal compensation. But it was the other way around. The first 5 AR rounds were to the right of center. But after making scope adjustments they were grouping pretty nice at that distance. After the first 6 rounds on the WM I just put it back in the case. No sense wasting ammo on it anymore.

Left side target .300WM at 200 yards. Right side AR-15 at 200 yards. Just aiming straight for the middle.

I plan o take the .300 grizzly hunting next year. But I'd hate to aim for his lungs and hit him in the testicles instead. I've got to figure out what's going on with it. At 100 yards things look good. At 200 any error is amplified.

 

[schmalts]

Are you hand loading?

 

[MThuntr]

have you let someone else shoot it?
rest type? brand of bases/rings? check your base & ring screws? barrel free floating? Bur on muzzle crown? gun clean or dirty? flinching? caffeine?

I'd wager you are flinching.

 

[rhipsher]

Are you hand loading?

Schmalts your talking to a novice that's wet behind the ears. I just shoot what's on the shelf. At the range I hear guys all around me talking about how they are trying some new loads they made. They bring their little mini lab with them and make a whole day of seeing what works best. But most of them are retired and can spend all day doing that. I'd like to learn how to hand load though.

 

[rhipsher]

have you let someone else shoot it?
rest type? brand of bases/rings? check your base & ring screws? barrel free floating? Bur on muzzle crown? gun clean or dirty? flinching? caffeine?

I'd wager you are flinching.

I don't flinch. I'm very comfortable with letting it kick the crap out of me. Very relaxed. All Leupold rings and hardware on both rifles. I will check the screws to make sure they are still tight. I fully clean my rifles after I shoot them. Very clean and oiled. I take great care of them.

 

[A-con]

As Mthuntr indicated, there are a million little things that can mess up accuracy, and a day at the range can really expose them.

I had a great day at the range yesterday, but it didn’t start out that way. I started out throwing bullets all over the target, then I settled down and shot some of the best groups of my life.

#1 Try several loads, find one that works, AND STICK WITH IT.
Some guns are very sensitive.

#2 Check to see if your scope mounts have worked loose, or your scope could be messed up.
Loose mounts have ruined many a range day

#3 Are you using a bi-pod, sand bags, shooting off hand ?
A good, solid rest can make all the difference.

 

[BuzzH]

Ever had any work done to the trigger?

Most Remington triggers, out of the box, are about as close to total chit as a trigger can be.

 

[rhipsher]

I'm using a bipod on both and sandbags. That's about as steady as I can get them. I've always been satisfied with the results of both rifles and even my .17 HMR at 100 yards. But at 200 yards and up it requires even more fine tuning. I fully expect to have to re sight my scopes in a little after they have sat in the closet for a few months. But today it just wasn't happening with the WM. I'll unpack it and take a look at everything tomorrow. Might be a scope issue. It's the only thing I can think of.

 

[rhipsher]

Ever had any work done to the trigger?

Most Remington triggers, out of the box, are about as close to total chit as a trigger can be.

The trigger does feel a little tight from the factory.

 

[WyOpitz]

Get rid of that SPS stock. Get some trigger work done or install a Timney. My factory SPS trigger came at almost 5 pounds. I put a timney in at 2 and 3/4 pounds... Much much better groups, but I am also a novice shooter.

 

[ardrhi]

I used to just buy whatever bullets were on the shelves, but my experience with an AR15 has changed that.
I got the AR15 a little over a month ago. I put a scope on it and sighted it in with the cheapest rounds I could find (Federal 5.56mm 55 grain fmj). Pretty soon I was putting every shot within 1" from 100 yards. Then I let my kids shoot it. They both shot better than they've ever done with our deer rifles. They both decided they wanted to use it for deer hunting if at all possible. I conceded because they were getting on target much faster without the fear of recoil and they were never missing due to a flinch. I did realize that I needed to change bullets - 55 grain full metal jacket is not a reasonable deer round. I found some HPR brand 75 grain ballistic tip bullets that should have done the trick.
We went to the range one more time before my daughter's hunt.
Those 75 grain bullets were all over the place. I thought I we were just shooting bad as we went through the whole box and never got anything resembling a pattern. I pulled out another box of the 55 grain fmj and fired 3 times. The first shot was good, but I thought I missed with the next two. We decided to give up and go home for a different gun. When we grabbed the target we discovered that all 3 bullets had hit. They were just all touching so it looked like a single hole. It wasn't the gun or the shooters, it was the bullets. They probably work well in some guns, but not this one.
I returned to town and to look for other bullets that would be acceptable deer rounds. There wasn't much in stock. The first three stores only had the HPR brand or full metal jackets. Finally, Walmart had one box of Fusion 62 grain soft points. The 62 grain Fusion hit a couple inches lower than the 55 grain Federal at 200 yards, but the important thing is the pattern was tight. A few clicks on the scope and we were ready to go hunting. Both of my kids made good shots and helped fill the freezer.

I would definitely start by checking for loose parts because that is free to do. When that is done, try some different bullets.

 

[ida homer]

You clean your gun every time you shoot it? If you shot that group with a cold clean bore I'm shocked you even hit the paper with the first 2. I clean mine typically after 30-40 rounds.

 

[Redwood]

I would check everything to make sure you don't have a loose mounting setup. Then buy a box or two of base quality ammo; some corelok, fusion, win grey box. Not only will this give you trigger time but a chance to find a company that your rifle prefers. Then zone in on the right load from that company. A comment you made caught me, you power clean after each use. That could be the problem. This can be heavily debated and I won't go to far into it but I wouldn't do that Target shooting platforms are not hunting platforms and shouldn't be care for the same. I'm not saying don't clean it, I'm saying id let the barrel foul up a bit. I get sighted in, then when I use it I run an oil patch followed by a dry patch. Power clean at the end of the year. A study done by the army showed that when they cleaned the M24, a rem 700 and the issued sniper platform, that it took up to 50 rounds before settling back in and holding groups. Again, clean and maintain just maybe rein it in a bit inbetween outtings in the same season.

 

[rhipsher]

You clean your gun every time you shoot it? If you shot that group with a cold clean bore I'm shocked you even hit the paper with the first 2. I clean mine typically after 30-40 rounds.

The last time I went to the range with the WM I shot 39 rounds. Big mistake because the next day my shoulder was black and blue. But the last time it was shot before today was my last hunting trip. I had it sighted in at 100 yards before we left. I was in a deer stand and took a shot at a 100lb wild hog at 200 yards and totally missed him. The bullet went right between his legs and they didn't hang around for me to get another one in. And I thought WTF? This thing is supposed to be good for 1,300 yards. I've got it sighted in at 100 yards and just totally missed a 100lb hog at 200 yards. FAIL lol! And two hours later I nail a 120 pounder running through thick brush from a standing shoulder shot at 60 yards and blew him into next week. But hell! If you can't hit a 120lb Russian boar at 60 yards with a .300WM then your either blind or just really suck. But missing that 200 yard shot is what made me go to the range today. And sure enough it's all over the place.

 

[WapitiBob]

My Rem 700 sps in 7STW used to shoot like that.
Best I could get was 2" at 200 and that was with one load. All others were 4"-6".
To get to 2":
bedded the action in a greybull stock and added slight forearm pressure under the barrel. Used business cards as shims to find the right amount.
Spent $1100 on a scope that wouldn't shake loose.
Quit cleaning it until 50 shots minimum.

Your gun may be totally different than mine, but that's what I did. The gun instantly came down to .600 at 200 with action truing and a new barrel.
My daughter shoots my STW. If you bed it in a good stock, the weight will absorb the recoil. You can bed them easily yourself and practice on the tupperware stock. You can also stiffen the factory stock by filling the front pockets with bedding compound. then bed the action in it and see if it gets to your needed level of accuracy.

 

[schmalts]

Ever had any work done to the trigger?

Most Remington triggers, out of the box, are about as close to total chit as a trigger can be.

the good thing is the 700's are one of the easiest to adjust as a DIY project
The Browning A-bolt is not so much

 

[schmalts]

Did this gun ever shoot good for you or is it a new toy. Some guns are turds, some not. but your group there is beyond turd. For me I will not keep a scoped gun that I cannot do a 1" 3 shot groups or better with hand loads. I had a Browning A-bolt in 7MM and a Kimber Montana in 300WSM that I sent down the road because they were waaaaaaaay to fussy. The Kimber drove me nuts, so I replaced it with a Sako 85 finnlite that shoots everything i toss at it under an inch, that gun is almost boring I actually did a 3 shot group under .400 inch with partitions.

 

[Biscuit Hunter]

Maybe you just had a bad day. It happens. By all means, check for loose screws-- don't forget the bipod-- but you might just have to admit that it was the nut behind the trigger that was loose. I've certainly been the problem that my rifle was having on more than one occasion.

Here's my advice-- practice dry-firing. Use it as a way to work on your form. Line yourself up behind the rifle the same way every time. Snug it into your shoulder the same way every time. Weld your cheek to the stock the same way every time.. Build the muscle memory of breaking the trigger without the punishment of recoil.

I know, I know... you don't flinch. Well... maybe you do, more than you know. One thing that I learned from dry-firing is that even the motion of the striker falling in my peripheral vision is enough to distract me from my sight picture. Enough to make me blink. I have to consciously will myself to maintain focus on my sight picture all of the way through the shot...

And next time you go to the range, go with a partner. Set up your rifle, then step away from the bench and turn away. Have your partner load it, or not, and close the bolt. Then set up behind it, get on target and try to make a perfect shot. Maybe the rifle goes boom, maybe it doesn't. The idea is that you won't know until it has happened. Do this over and over, and I'll bet that one of the times that the rifle goes click instead of boom, your crosshairs will have wandered from the bull do to some anticipation, or "flinch," on your part. We all do it, but usually it is masked by the recoil of the rifle. Unexpected dry-firing can reveal a lot of things.

 

[1_pointer]

Since you don't handload, it may be as simple as trying a different factory load. Not all guns like all loads. Besides, the one you pictured isn't really appropriate grizzly "medicine" anyway.

Don't take this too hard, but unless you're AR isn't all that accurate, in looking at the two targets it appears to me you just need alot more practice. Other than the one way high & right, the 300WM group is about the same size as the other. Make some of the easy to do suggestions above and practice as much as you can with the lighter recoiling guns. Once you get better with them, then get back on the 300.

PS- Most people that flinch don't think/realize they do...

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

If I were you I would try and take the human element out of things here before you get too far down the road of thinking it is the rifle. If you can borrow a Caldwell Lead sled from someone and bring it out to the range and test things again you will at least know for sure that it is the rifle. "Flinch" is a subconscious defense mechanism to an explosion happening a couple feet from your face, and has little to do with pain tolerance. You can consciously have no issue with the recoil, but that doesn't mean your reflexes aren't kicking when you brain anticipates the recoil. It's like blinking your eye when your brain senses movement right in front of it, you can't consciously stop it, but you can train it out of your self. IMO, the best way to ensure you aren't anticipating the recoil is shooting alot with a .22 LR or similar calliber. Buy a good quality 22 (CZ 455 might be a good option), zero it for 100yds, and shoot it as much as you can. I shoot 10 times as much each year with a 22 than I do with any of my other rifles to help condition myself away from anticipating recoil.