Pronghorn populations rebound on refuge

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> One of your examples, Deseret Land and Livestock shows a 25% decrease in Mule deer when 3000 cattle were added to the ranch. In my opinion, a Trophy Mule Deer buck is probably the most difficult animal in the West to find, and here you have a ranch that decimates 1/4 of the population. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What about the increases in elk? The grazing is done mostly on the lower elevations where there are some deer, but mostly pronghorn which increased from 0 to 200. The ranch manages more for elk than deer because they can get more for the elk ($12000/bull tag). I'm also not so sure about the impact of cattle on deer, as their diets are too different. Is it coincidence that mule deer populations peaked in the 1960's when grazing was much higher then than now? I think no. I have no proof, but it is my contention that the increased cattle (as sheep were already on their way out in many areas by then) increased the amount of shrubs, particularly sagebrush. In many areas, sagebrush has increased to unhealthy levels. This allowed for more forage to be available during the winter months for the deer. Thoughts or opinions?

What about the other example, where grazing led to more species diversity on grazed land than ungrazed land?

Just to reiterate, I am not for wholesale grazing of public lands. But, the science is in and livestock, IF MANAGED PROPERLY can be a good tool to increase habitat. I personally think that is the main way of thinking that the USFS and BLM are going to be trying to use them in the future. Societal demand is higher for recreation, thus that is what will be the highest priority for management. Thus, grazing, logging, etc will be used as a tool to increase the recreation aspect instead of a focus. Commodity production will become a part of the system instead of what drives the system. Just my $0.02.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Troy "Between my family, inlaws, nieghbors and friends, I will always have much more land than I could ever get around to hunting. On top of that, I get trophy animals every year. So really, Ithaca and Elkgunner I don't give a shit."

Aren't you employed by the taxpayers? With an attitude toward the general public like yours we can't expect you to make the right decisions.

 

[Troy Jones]

What decisions? I follow laws and rules set by the Dept. of Ag.. If I don't, I don't have a job. With the mediation, I work on groups finding a middle ground that's acceptable.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Troy, Caught red handed, huh?! Now you're a mediator just following the rules (as if you don't have any influence over the final decision). A mediator should be impartial. With your attitude toward the general public you should be fired.

BTW, You're not posting on gummint time, are you? Remember, we're paying you to work a full day; not to be posting messages on some Internet BB. Where exactly is it you put in your time standing around the water cooler and playing on the Internet?

Where's your concern for the hunting taxpayers who are paying your salary? "In all actuality, we have an easy 400 plus population of antelope just on the North unit of our ranch, so I really don't give a shit about Ithaca's or Elkgunner's woes."

Being from a big family of ranchers must make it difficult to be an impartial mediator, doesn't it?

 

[Ten Bears]

IT,TROY said nothing about his handlings of public lands there. He just stated that hehad massive amounts of private land to hunt, and really didn't care what you thought.

I will wager, based on this study done in Nebraska, that removal of grazing and increasing tall grasses will have a decreasing effect in the long run. As grass was shown to compose only 22 percent of the diet, and the primary defense mechanisms being incredible eye sight, and speed. If an antelope can't see predators.....

 

[cjcj]

this is interesting and i just thought i would add my opinion, the most antelope i have ever seen were in wyoming, from gillette to casper, the lopes were in the hundreds along most highways, what states has the most antelope? my street observation says wyoming, but i would really like to know why? isn`t wyoming big on cattle? but regardless all hunters should be in favor of more lopes even if it means less cattle, the pronghorn situaton in AZ is the worst i can remember.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Elkgunner,

I was just giving you some good advice. Use it how you like. I just don't want to hear you whining when things don't go how you would like them too.

Paul

 

[Troy Jones]

Ithaca, you are a freak with delusions of grandeur. If I have to explain myself... My 4 year old has an ear infection, so I used a vaction day to stay home with her.

I really don't care about the outcome of any mediation, as long as they quit bitching about it to me. How's that for being impartial.

 

[Ten Bears]

What ya gonna do IT, call his boss?????
Get real.

 

[BuzzH]

Troy, what you arent thinking about is the hunters who DONT have 4 ranches owned by their families for hunting. As long as you have your place to hunt, who cares about what happens on public lands...is what you're saying?

The land I can count on is PUBLIC land, so therefore, I DONT GIVE A SHIT about some welfare rancher. However, I GIVE A SHIT about the public wildlife and the condition of its public lands habitat, thats where I hunt.

 

[JoseCuervo]

It is intersting that on the various "High Fence" threads, we are told that all us "Hunters" need to stick together, and support the "High Fence" gang, as if we don't support their "shooting", our Fair Chase Hunting will be targeted by the Antis-.
And same with NRA/Guns, that if we don't support all the NRA extremes, then our hunting guns will be gone.

But here we have comments from people who make comments like <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Between my family, inlaws, nieghbors and friends, I will always have much more land than I could ever get around to hunting. On top of that, I get trophy animals every year. So really, Ithaca and Elkgunner I don't give a shit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>. Boy, talk about an area that ALL hunters should rally to, it would be the preservation of Public Lands and the Wildlife, therein.

Every person on this board, with a couple of hundred dollars can go hunt the public lands of Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, etc.. every year. These lands don't require you to marry the ugly gal whose daddy just happens to own 4000 acres. These lands don't require you to send a Ham to the owner every Christmas.

If one is to really worry about all the Habitat destruction, as growth in the Wildlands interface keeps progressing, and large tracts of private land are chopped up for 'ranchettes' and such, then all hunters will have to rely on these public lands.

The whole <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I really don't give a shit about Ithaca's or Elkgunner's woes <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> is probably the most narrow minded view point possible. I assure you, if the Public Lands are managed for Wildlife, then every person on this board, who calls themself a hunter, will have a place to hunt, and an area to hunt.

I recently saw a survey result that said most "back east hunters" number one dream hunt was to "hunt out west" for Elk. I don't remember where I saw it, so I can't cite the reference, but it sounds correct. And if we manage the Public Lands for Wildlife, then we will be able to fullfill the dreams of the hunters everywhere.

So, hopefully, most people do give a "Shit", and want access and animals for all.

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So, hopefully, most people do give a "Shit", and want access and animals for all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, access yes, by all means possible no.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Gunner, Thanks! That's the point I've been trying to get across here in SI for a couple years! The best way to insure that we have hunting in the future is to protect and improve wildlife habitat on public land. The goal is to enhance wildlife populations on public land and provide great hunting opportunities for everyone, not just people who want to spend big bucks to shoot some poor tame elk caged in by a high fence.

I think anyone who opposes efforts to improve public land habitat must be anti-hunting. That's the category I put some SI posters in. Any hunter who supports welfare rancher's in their ongoing practice of destroying public land wildlife habitat must not be very bright. Jon Marvel is the greatest thing that's happened to public land hunting in the West in the last twenty years. Go, Marvel, go!!!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Access for me, always possible, as I just rope me one of them Wild Horses, and throw my saddle on one, and a sawbuck on the other, and off I go..... at 30 mph .....

shouting YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw

Note: YeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaw roughly translates into OhhhhhhhShhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, I am gonnna be killllllllllllllllllled

 

[Nut]

As a Easterner who wants to hunt Elk and pronghorn antelope someday in the future. I would like to have a place to hunt and to have at least a chance to see one while I hunt. I can see cows here and don't want to drive thousands of miles just to see more of them. My tax money goes west to support the subsidies that businesses and ranchers receive. It has been noted before in SI that better practices are there for maintaining good lands for all yet a number of people are not capable of accepting them because of the blinders they wear.

If you claim to be a hunter and dont care about your fellow hunters then you should look at the youth that want to become hunters. Depriving them of opportunities to experience the outdoors is unexusable and extremely selfish.

Besides Vipe wont allow me to diddle the Rancher's daughter to get access to private land.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Nut, Troy's attitude is typical of the rancher's attitude towards the general public. In many cases they have been able to block access to public lands, thus creating their own very semi-private hunting areas on public land. In the case of the welfare ranchers it's even more aggravating that we are subsidizing them while they ruin public land habitat while blocking public access to it.

With Troy in a position of public trust while he's mediating land disputes you can see the kind of trouble we're in.

 

[Troy Jones]

I'll say one thing about you ithaca, you are a master of taking things out of context and making shit up. I said nothing about mediating "land disputes". I did'nt say I didn't care about public land, just you and elkgunner's woes. Hey, I Black Hills deer hunt on forest service and spent my youth archery deer hunting on a BLM chunk by a veteran's hospital that's open to everyone and got a lot of great bucks, what's your problem ithaca? Not a great hunter without a guide holding your hand? I see Buzz complaining while having pics of some great animals he took off public land. What's there to complain about? Getting tired of working for the animal you harvest? Like I said before, I don't give a shit, I get trophy animals every year, on public and private. Some must not be putting in the time it takes. Around here we call them part-timers. They are the ones that whine all the time. They go out for a couple half days and complain that they didn't get a deer because of... "pick your complaint or excuse".

Our land is anything but locked up. We have dozens of people we let hunt most areas and on top of that we lease thousands of acres to the game and fish for "walk-in" land. You want a goat you fruit cake ithaca? Get the the unit in the South half of Perkins County in Western South Dakota. There is over 60,000 acres of walk-in in that little unit. If you can't get a 14 inch goat or better, your doing something wrong.

As far as BLM land, we have less than a quarter section of it in several little parcels. So if you think it's right to let someone drive or walk all over a 3,600 acre pasture to get at a 40 acre chunk of BLM without asking or having permission, you are tweeked.

Part of mediation is having both parties look at the other's side. You obviously have to have all or nothing, that is the spoiled child syndrome. It's a wonder anyone would be on the defense and not waste their time on you. Don't make any presumptions of me, if you knew me you wouldn't make those accusations.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Troy, What is it you mediate?

"Getting tired of working for the animal you harvest?" Nope, I never get tired of hunting hard. Most of the time I wish it was harder. That's why I don't mind wolves and lions. They make the deer and elk more wary and more challenging to hunt. I might even take up elk hunting again if it starts getting tougher. And I get all the big game I want and always have. As for being guided----I'd never use a guide where it wasn't mandatory (actually, I might use an outfitter if I ever get drawn for Desert Sheep and don't have a lot of time to scout, but whomever I hire will be one of my friends in the business. I only need a Desert to complete my grand slam and if I ever get drawn I don't want to blow it). Used to do a lot of guiding for deer and elk in CO. I've used guides in Canada where required by law and I was probably the easiest client they ever had. I ended up guiding about half of them. The other half were real good and we had a great time together.

Don't waste any time worrying about Buzz's and my ability to get good animals, but you should recognize that Buzz and I are concerned about the rest of the public having good opportunities to harvest game. That's what it's going to take to keep hunting a strong tradition in this country. If you cared about public hunting opportunities you'd want the welfare ranchers more tightly regulated as we do.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 08-23-2003 19:41: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Troy Jones]

Most of the mediation I do is between all the outsiders that have moved in and purchased small acreage that has been cut up from a once large ranch. Mainly from encroaching noxious weeds or prairie dogs. The ranchers are great to deal with, they call and want help, so I set up a management plan for them. But the ranchette owners take up a large part of my time and generally don't know who the nieghbors are. Most of the time this leads to a pissing match or the snowball effect.

I am the go-between between the forest service, BLM, NRCS, State lands, special interest groups and the County for external government properties which lie within the County. Current issues deal with the pine and ips beetle infestations and the over abundance of noxious weeds. Mainly a paper shuffle that never seems to get any where and always just a huge waste of funding. Your welfare rancher is such a small drop in the bucket, you have no idea.

I don't like my job by any means. I am currently looking for something else. Had enough of politics, beaurocrats, paperwork and red tape to last me. Just plain tired of listening to people bitch and having more bosses than help.

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Any hunter who supports welfare rancher's in their ongoing practice of destroying public land wildlife habitat must not be very bright. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree. But also support those that are making the land better by using livestock as a tool. Red Canyon Ranch in WY used livestock to rehabilitate the watersheds on the area to the point that they had river otters naturally return. This ranch is also included in the Welfare Ranching picture book. Of note, the picture of the ranch posted is of a public sportsman's access to a watershed that had not been 'treated' at the time the picture had been taken.