Pronghorn populations rebound on refuge

[1_pointer]

Faulting the BLM is fair, but maybe not always. Many of the areas managed by the Salt Lake Field Office rate as poor due to being heavily infested with cheatgrass. However, large sections of this area were nothing but halogeton 20 years ago. So, though it is still poor, it is better than previously. One more thing to keep in mind is that even though the Taylor Grazing Act went into effect in 1934, many of the allotments in UT were not set up until the 1960's!! Much of this land sees less than 12" of precipitation per year. Thus, the impacts that occured at the turn of the century may or may not have healed.

Overgrazing still does occur on public lands, albeit much less than in the past. That problem should be fixed. One thing we much remember is that it may take a LONG time for land to heal, if it is possible at all (states and transitions model). Though things are better and getting more so all the time, I'm still not satisfied which is why I'm trying to be a part of the solution. If that calls for removing livestock or adding even more, so be it. Whatever is required to make the land healthier.

One question:
Would you support a drastic reduction in game animals (especially deer or elk) if it was proven that they are over-grazing an area?

 

[BuzzH]

Ten bears, yes I knew Bud McCauley, he lived in White Sulphur Springs, Montana for over 70 years.

Not sure if its the same guy you seem to be referring to or not?

Did you know him?

cjcj, I bought those coyotes, and their guts were full of donuts, and they were shitting jelly and powdered sugar.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 08-15-2003 14:32: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Troy, "I would say the BLM's fault. They set the allotments and the rancher is just taking advantage of it." I suppose you blame the cops when somebody robs a bank, right? The welfare ranchers know there aren't enough BLM range biologists and enforcement people to keep an eye on things, so they take advantage as much as they can. But REMEMBER, these are the same welfare ranchers who claim they know what's best for the land and claim they are the original environmentalists and claim they love the land and would never do anything that wasn't best for it. Now you're saying they will take advantage whenever they can?

So which is it, Troy? Are welfare ranchers good stewards of the land or are they the type that take advantage of leases and abuse the land? Thanks for already answering the question: "They (the BLM) set the allotments and the rancher is just taking advantage of it. Does that mean if any of us find a good deal we are son of a bitches for taking advantage of it?

Answer your own question. If BLM sets the allotments and ranchers take advantage of it who is doing what's best for the land? The ranchers always claim they know what's best, right? How could a rancher abuse the land, then. How'd 60% of all BLM get into poor condition if ranchers know what's best for the land?

As for your statistics; at least 80% of Idaho is public land. Mostly BLM and FS with some state and local gummint owned. Can you tell us which western states have only 3% BLM, as you used in your example, or were you trying to mislead us with an example that wasn't related to reality?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 08-15-2003 15:16: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Troy Jones]

If Idaho is over 80% public land it is a welfare State. Where's your tax base to support such a lop-sided ownership of land. Sounds like a communist State, which would bring into light your stance on most subjects.

Pertaining to the land issue, we were discussing "BLM" lands, as far as I understood. What State has 3% BLM? I would say that South Dakota maybe has less than that.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Quit your whining Ithaca.

 

[BuzzH]

Troy, remember its not state land, its federal land. Thusly, the tax base comes from the federal budget, so the tax base of ID, MT, WY, UT, and other states largely comprised of Federal lands, is irrevelant in your example. It also doesnt make them welfare states in that regard.

If they recieve federal funds to manage STATE lands, then yeah, you are correct.

Federal lands are held in trust for everyone in the United States.

I also agree with you to a point, that ultimately it is the BLM that is responsible for their lands being in crap condition. But, as I'm sure you're well aware, breaking up the good-ol-boy network in many parts of the West is pretty tough to do...

I think with the retirement of many of the dinosaurs holding positions in the BLM, FS, etc. you'll see better accountability and be less likely to have politics interfere in proper management.

That said, I also agree with Ithaca, if a rancher knowingly abuses his leases, he's no better than those that allow it to happen.

I'd also say that in states like UT, AZ, ID, MT, WY, CO poor grazing practices definately affects wildlife very significantly. In your state, no, probably not as you dont have much federal land. Thats another tough thing to realize, and I'm just as guilty as anyone, that things arent the same in each state.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Troy, Here's the data. Idaho is at 65.2%Fed Land, 5.2% State and I couldn't find info on the percentage of county and local gummint owned. I've always heard Idaho is about 80% public land, but that seems high in light of these stats. I bet it's closer to 72%. I don't know how water acreage fits in.

You don't have to thank me for the stats showing SD. I know you'll appreciate knowing a little more about your state. How about telling us again what western states have 3% BLM? As usual, you don't know what you're talkin' about.

Land Owned by State and Federal Government, by percentage of total state US ranking Federal % State % Both % Gov't Acreage
AK 1 67 28 95.8 349,827 K
ID 4 65.2 5.2 70.4 37,268 K
WY 7 49.7 6.2 55.9 34,767 K
MT 12 31.9 5.6 37.5 34.910 K
NH 19 15.1 2.9 18 1,030 K
VT 25 14.2 1.6 15.8 933 K
ND 34 7.3 1.8 9.1 4,038 K
SD 35 8.7 0.2 8.9 4,296 K
DE 37 2.5 4.9 7.4 92 K
ME 41 1.2 4.5 5.7 1,128 K

http://www.freestateproject.org/homeownership.htm

Here's more info:

http://www.nwi.org/Maps/LandChart.html

 

[Oak]

http://www.colorado.edu/libraries/govpubs/colonumb/fedlands.htm

At that website you'll find 8 states listed that are comprised of more than 3% BLM land. If I'm not mistaken, I believe every federal land management agency makes "payments in lieu of taxes", which is no different than property tax, to the individual counties in which the land lies. I'm not sure how that makes those states "welfare states", as the gov. is basically paying property tax just like the rest of us.

Oak

 

[Troy Jones]

No the stats on South Dakota makes perfect sense. Ranked 35th. with 8.7 percent federal land, of which most is Indian trust land, forest service second and BLM last.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Troy, Who you tryin' to BS? Your example is completely irrelevent to western states. The topic is antelope, remember? Here's your BS, "If 3% of your State's land is BLM and 60% is overgrazed that leaves 1.8%. Say that 1.8% of....." You must think we don't have any more brains than a welfare rancher.

Here's a better example: How about if your state is 67% BLM (Nevada) and 60% of that BLM is in poor condition due to cattle grazing? That means 40% of the whole state of Nevada is in poor condition due to cattle grazing! And don't forget the FS land is overgrazed at about the same rate.

Troy, Remember, that gummint land is YOUR land and MY land. Now let's see you defend welfare ranching! They've destroyed 40% of Nevada!

Do some math and figure out how much of the other BLM states has been ruined by cattle! Utah is 40% BLM. 60% of that is 24% of Utah! As for your 1% example----Do you think it's acceptable for welfare ranchers to destroy 1% of a state?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 08-15-2003 21:18: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[cjcj]

Hey Ithaca still don`t believe me that AZ shoots coyotes from choppers?

 

[Ithaca 37]

cj, can you provide any backup for that claim? Don't give the ol' "I can't research" excuse. Start learning. It's real easy.

 

[cjcj]

I did find out about it! it`s not so much the research , it`s the posting of it , i gave you some info. ph.# and website did you check it out, or was it in my favor and you don`t want to admit it.

 

[Ithaca 37]

cj, No, I didn't call up the AZ F&G and start asking qyuestions and I didn't go to the site and look for the info. Get real! You make a claim and you want me to go look for backup to prove it?! If you don't know how to copy and paste info or a website you can easily learn. Try looking in your "help" menu or look here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=how+to+copy+and+paste&btnG=Google+Search

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 08-16-2003 04:18: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[cjcj]

it wont work on this piece of shit PC. thats what i`m trying to tell you, everytime i try copy and paste my pc. says " this page has expired" i clicked on your link and then went to copy and paste and the same thing "this page has expired" sometimes my whole system freezes up and i have to shut it down, give me an email address and i will send you the truth![ about yotes] my computer was free,[kids left it behind] and it`s not an excuse !its a fact! by the way i use google search all of the time, but it [this pc.] has alot of glitches, it was put together by some young kids who wanted FREE internet [yes i need a new system] you want me to back my claim? give me an e`mail! by the way how come EVERYONE else but you knows about AZ using copters to kill coyotes? i thought you knew everything, you shouldn`t have to have a 'street bioligist'inform you of this FACT. `

 

[Ithaca 37]

cj, I'm sorry your pc is a piece of shit!

So sorry, in fact, that I tried to research whether AZ F&G was paying a private company to hunt coyotes from a helicopter. I couldn't find anything about it!

Here's what you said, "its the pro`s [game& fish] that are telling everyone to shoot all of the yotes they see! that`s why they pay for a private Co. to shoot coyotes from helicopters,"

There are references to Animal Damage Control (a division of the Dept. of Agriculture) employees shooting coyotes from helicopters in various states. I even found this: "Despite criticism by environmental groups, the Arizona Game and Fish Department began hunting coyotes by helicopter this week to give newborn antelope a better chance of survival...."

http://www.fguardians.org/news/n000426.html

But I can't find anything about AZ F&G paying a private company to hunt the coyotes. Sorry.

 

[muskrat89]

I know what it is

We used to trap em in New Brunswick. Most people don't know that they are one of the porcupine's only real predators...

In the 80s, when I was trapping, a dark female would go for over $300

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 08-16-2003 15:27: Message edited by: muskrat89 ]</font>

 

[JoseCuervo]

CJ,

C'mon, do us all a favor.... Look what $730 will get you at your local BestBuy.

Presario Package

Just think CJ, in 30 minutes, after you get home, you will be able to research all the information you need on illegal aliens, Unidentified Aliens, and their Flying Objects, and all the other great threats to the Arizona way of life. Hell, you'll even be able to send more E-Mail to McCAin, getting these dams breached on the Lower Snake River.

Just with hold the payment you send to the Militia organziations for a couple of months, maybe skip the trip to Vegas this month, and you got it paid for.

Hell, with your vast knowledge of Street Biology, and armed with a good PC, you will be the Man!

 

[cjcj]

Well i do appreciate you looking up that the game and fish is in favor of aircraft gunning, that in itself should satisfy half of my claim[facts] i read about the private co. in the AZ republic [newspaper] i had it confirmed that i read it right when i called the G&F on friday, ive got an email from a woman at G&F she confirmed it to me but said she couldnt retreive the story, and if this is about me getting my facts[claim right] i will do anything [short of buying a new PC.] if you still want the story, but i wonder really what dirrerance does it make if the game and fish hired a private co, or if they do it themselves, but i will call them back on monday[ i know a few bigshots in G&F i`ll get some answers.

 

[Ithaca 37]

cj, Don't trouble yourself calling F&G. I'll believe you. Just spend all that extra time and energy you'll save on earning enough for one of those new fangled computers so you can do research and educate us all on the threats to our lives and liberty radiating from Arizona!

 

[cjcj]

Hey Ithaca thank`s for the info! i`ll pass it along to [santa] maybee if `im a good boy i`ll get one for Xmas.