Prescribed Burn Arrest

[sapperJ24]

Well for hells sake, anyone that's lit a match knows things with fire don't go perfect 100% of the time.

I can't tell you how many prescribed fires I've been on that had slop over. Prescription windows are tight and one gust of wind can change things quick.

It also seems solving issues with common sense and at the lowest level is just not happening anymore.

I'm not opposed to getting pissed, but get over it, take off the diaper, pick up your sucker off the dirt, and solve the issue like an adult.

This isn't a complicated problem to solve.

I think this is an aspect many people don't understand. We're not talking about Florida here, you can't burn in 40% and 60 degrees out here.

The bare minimum goal of a prescribed fire is to consume fuel at some level, and the conditions must be hot and dry enough to accomplish that. And if you don't have slope, you have to have wind.

Everyone wants the Forest Service to do more "active management" and be efficient and this is part of it. My forest burns units to prep for planting, to reduce hazardous fuels, and to improve habitat for wildlife.

 

[BackofBeyond]

Is that his actual fence?

Yes, yes it is.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Everyone wants the Forest Service to do more "active management" and be efficient and this is part of it. My forest burns units to prep for planting, to reduce hazardous fuels, and to improve habitat for wildlife.

A good friend of mine is a fire manager at a nearby federal refuge. They have been doing a lot of prescribed burns. He said they had one very nearly get away from them, and this was after DAYS of prep work. They held it, but he said it was touch and go.

It really is a no win situation and I don’t think the “defund the feds” folks are applying much critical thinking here.

 

[mtmiller]

Is that his actual fence?

Pretty easy to see where his fences are.

 

[sapperJ24]

My guess at the slop location, Google streetview.

 

[CowboyLeroy]

Yes, yes it is.

Then it looks like they may have burned it more than once

 

[BackofBeyond]

Then it looks like they may have burned it more than once

Or the land owner torched it several times burning weeds.

 

[CowboyLeroy]

Or the land owner torched it several times burning weeds.

That could be assumed

 

[TheTone]

My guess at the slop location, Google streetview.

View attachment 246917

Those poor Russian thistle, hard to replace that habitat

 

[COEngineer]

If a prescribed fire got out of hand and was burning my land, I would:

1. Try to evacuate any livestock that can be moved out of the path of the fire.
2. Try to help fight the fire, protect buildings and other property if possible.
3. Gather evidence of damages to get a payout or file a lawsuit as needed.

You will notice that calling the Sheriff is not on the list.

 

[Irrelevant]

If a prescribed fire got out of hand and was burning my land, I would:

1. Try to evacuate any livestock that can be moved out of the path of the fire.
2. Try to help fight the fire, protect buildings and other property if possible.
3. Gather evidence of damages to get a payout or file a lawsuit as needed.

You will notice that calling the Sheriff is not on the list.

Rational, logical, appropriate.

 

[TOGIE]

the details are practically irrelevant here in what happened.

arresting the on site fire chief/boss, on site, is $*)Q!#@$ stupid. end of story.

if he had broken laws, and arrests were warranted, they can do that later. there's really nothing to argue about here.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

if he had broken laws, and arrests were warranted, they can do that later. there's really nothing to argue about here.

Emotion won out over logic.

 

[BuzzH]

Those poor Russian thistle, hard to replace that habitat

"I've never seen the weeds...uh the cattle feed so green and worth more than this year, sonny".

 

[Jbaldwin40]

the details are practically irrelevant here in what happened.

arresting the on site fire chief/boss, on site, is $*)Q!#@$ stupid. end of story.

if he had broken laws, and arrests were warranted, they can do that later. there's really nothing to argue about here.

I don't see this even getting close to a conviction. DA should not even file charges on this stupidity. There was a prescription that has to be followed for burning. They will need an expert witness to testify to the recklessness. Unfortunately there was no forethought by the SO and they arrested an expert in burning. Sounds purely political with the Sheriff consulting with a constituent on what to do. This is a civil issue. Sad to see this. Like all of the west, there will be wildland fires in the future which will require these two agencies to work cooperatively together. This is not going to help. The only people paying the price then will be the citizens who reside there.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

 

[LuketheDog]

 

[theat]

I spent a few years working in wildland fire and know quite a few people still in the business both in private and government positions. Lots of talk about crews/resources refusing to take assignments in eastern Oregon or anywhere where they think a similar situation may occur. During bad fire years when resources are scarce, these regions might find themselves dealing with fires on their own.

We had a large fire here last summer. The amount of crazy conspiracy theories about the government trying to burn down the town to force everyone to move so they can create a human free zone from the Yukon to Yellowstone was ridiculous. Firefighters had guys point rifles at them and forced them to leave the fire line. The National Guard had to be called in to provide protection for the firefighters. Lots of folks screaming and yelling at the public meetings with several arrests made. Lots of people claiming that the Forest Service intentionally let the fire go and didn't initially contain it on purpose. That start was one of 13 fires started by a lightning storm. The district using only the limited local resources were able to contain 12 of the fires in the first few days before more resources could get here. Anyone with a lick of common sense would be impressed that they were able to contain that many starts in this rugged terrain.

 

[Sytes]

I wouldn't have a problem calling the sheriff's Dept though not as a victim, rather for assistance clearing the property and adjacent properties, if needed.

Is this the actual Sheriff that showed or a Deputy? I'd imagine a Deputy would have immediately shot this up to the Watch Commander and I would bet .99 on the $1.00 the WC would CYA and shoot it further up the chain before placing a Federal Employee, in uniform, in the course of his/her duty, under arrest.

I'm not specifying Federal Employee's on some pedestal, as an exception, either. I would say the same if it was the County Fire Chief, Police Captain on scene and a complaintant wanted to file charges that would result in the On Scene Fire Chief handcuffed and transported, unless the cause significant enough to identify as malicious intent, etc.

That takes some serious rotton huevos to do something of this sort. Is the Sheriff up for election?

 

[PrairieHunter]

well, I'll bite I guess. Among the various jobs I've help for the Forest Service, my current one would be described as wildland firefighter.

I'm curious, do you think the Forest Service would get better at managing the land with 90% less funding? Or should the Forest Service divest the land?

Yeah, on a big incident there are a lot of people standing around. There's lots of reasons for this, we can dive into it if you want. I wont defend a lot of it, but a lot of it is out of our hands. Often local politicians (county commissioner type) want to keep the FS around long after the fire is a threat for various reasons (like maybe the team can keep bringing in money to outfitters and local businesses who are supplying the fire). Do you want every person in a yellow shirt digging handline?

Have you ever worked with contract engine crews? There's a lot out there that most people would not want unsupervised at their evacuated house.

I also agree the FS isn't good at enforcing laws, and yeah, in lots of places we struggle to manage the forests the way we would like to. Often this comes down to lack of funding and litigation.

What is your vision for the FS's mission?

I haven't found what the USFS does a good job of to be honest. My take is the USFS has already turned over the management of wildlife on it's land to the state so it probably makes the most sense to allow the states to mange things like the grazing and timber resources along with local law enforcement as opposed to federal LEO's. States are simply better at managing land and get more for the resources. Sheriffs departments are simply better at enforcing laws than the USFS LEO's. Grazing rights states could probably get around $20 per AUM, vs $1.35 the feds get. States will get more logging projects done, more wood utilized, less fires, less $ wasted fighting fires, etc.... You see it around places like Bozeman where USFS land is completely overgrown and projects get stopped by lawsuits but miraculously on state land the projects keep moving.

The reason everyone stays around after fires is to milk uncle sam for every last dime. It's a big business opportunity.

So I think we can check the following off what the USFS is good at.
1. Managing forests, utilizing wood, etc.. Very little focus on utilization.
2. Managing grazing rights, literally getting pennies on the dollar and not holding lease holders accountable.
3. Managing wildlife, already turned over to state,
4. Running a nationwide trade school where they have to hire contractors to do most of the actual work since USFS cant' seem to get it done. No idea how this happened.
5. Managing recreation, evident by the offices all being closed on weekend so usfs staff can go home. lol
6. Enforcing laws. This is all but non existent for off roading, littering, camping more than 14 days, unoccupied campers, etc...
7. Managing fuels, fire management where they spend nothing in an area for wood utilization but will drop millions to fight a fire. Even worse situations like New Mexico where USFS staff caused billions in damages. Great management right there.
8. Real Estate. With so many claims, private land mixed in huge pieces of USFS, private homes on leased USFS land, Land locked inaccessible land, etc. its hard to say they really have done a good job of managing the real-estate situation.



So to be honest I am really not sure what function the USFS could really do other than a small staff that worked with the states to collect information on forests while turning most of the management of the land and funding over to the states. At that point the states would take over and hire the best staff including some of the best USFS folks while leaving most of the dead weight to find another job.

As far as me I have personally built fire stations with huge reimbursement funding from fires on federal land. My family is heavily involved in federal contracting so I have seen this incompetence from many federal agencies not just the USFS. I have done many contracting projects for the USFS and have had many interaction with USFS Job Corps training centers. For example I managed a full renovation of the USFS offices in Chadron NE, where for 3 months we watched a girl who literally sat and played on her phone almost all day. She did not realize we could see her and she literally just played all day. I have been around many USFS fire crews including my brother is a life long USFS employee including working fires. So yea I know a bit about the USFS. I also own businesses across the street from the USDA office so I have first hand knowledge on what they accomplish on a daily basis.

As far as fire crews it just seems like a huge money grab. Contractors, fire fighters, VFD's, air support crews, etc all get in line to make a killing off the USFS. I am sure you have seen plenty of it.

I appreciate your honesty