Non-political Make ICE hate make sense to me. Can it be civil?

[Justabirdwatcher]

It’s a reflection of poor leadership. We have not had a respectful president since Obama. When Trump won the first time he rubbed it in the face of the democratic voters. When Biden won he said that the adults were back in charge. The president’s are dividing us into two teams where the most important thing is that the other side fails. It’s like the Ford Chevy debate. Both companies put out garbage and just want your money, but people will pick a side and defend it like a cult.

I was willing to agree with that right up until he publicly humiliated trump in front of the entire press corps, and basically, the world. That was a low class move by an otherwise stand up guy. But if you look at his behavior, every now and then he made it about him (Obama) and just couldn't help himself in the moment. But those press dinner jokes were pre-planned and scripted. I don't give him a pass for those. I am 100% sure trump has never forgotten how he was humiliated, in person, on live tv by Obama. Presidents should not behave that way, I think we can all agree. And nobody, president or not, should behave the way this potus is behaving. I'm sure most of us can agree on that as well.

The OP's take is an incredible oversimplification of the challenges of dealing with immigration. IMO, Dubya had the best approach and more and more often these days, I miss that guy like I never thought I would.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Let me see if I got this right.

1. Not showing your hunting license when asked (when you are hunting) is grounds for a GF agency to assume you are hunting illegally.
2. Not showing your ID when asked to identity is perfectly legit and no assumptions can be made.

Just the kind of logical consistency I expected.

Yes if you are brown. One sends you on a plain to Honduras and a camp the other gets you a seat before a judge in your county

 

[Elkmagnet]

I was willing to agree with that right up until he publicly humiliated trump in front of the entire press corps, and basically, the world. That was a low class move by an otherwise stand up guy. But if you look at his behavior, every now and then he made it about him (Obama) and just couldn't help himself in the moment. But those press dinner jokes were pre-planned and scripted. I don't give him a pass for those. I am 100% sure trump has never forgotten how he was humiliated, in person, on live tv by Obama. Presidents should not behave that way, I think we can all agree. And nobody, president or not, should behave the way this potus is behaving. I'm sure most of us can agree on that as well.

The OP's take is an incredible oversimplification of the challenges of dealing with immigration. IMO, Dubya had the best approach and more and more often these days, I miss that guy like I never thought I would.

Absolutely fair. I feel like that moment was how we ended up here today.

 

[TOGIE]

Let me see if I got this right.

1. Not showing your hunting license when asked (when you are hunting) is grounds for a GF agency to assume you are hunting illegally.
2. Not showing your ID when asked to identity is perfectly legit and no assumptions can be made.

Just the kind of logical consistency I expected.

It's the court's logical "consistency", not mine. If you don't like it, take it up with your reps.

These "tread on me, daddy" memes just get a bit more apt every day.

 

[Bonasababy]

Have not read all the replies, but one factor I don't see in the OP is the value immigration has to our economic interests in the US.

It's huge, and absolutely necessary--ever demographer and economist would agree.

Why?

The US Birth rate will fall below death rate in just a few years. We went through most of our lives with the huge flush of baby boomers contributing to our economy. Most of them will be retired or dead in just a few years. To maintain our economy, we need more babies born. Child bearing age people is MUCH lower than average over past years and we also know they do not have the same outlook on numbers of children they want to have as average in the past. Many want none--not something common in the past.

People are needed to fill jobs, and not just grow but maintain our economy. We are running out of people.

Basic government costs--policing, transportation and everything they do for us--need people paying taxes to fund.

Suddenly many less people and those expenses still have to be paid. Guess how that occurs? HIGHER TAXES FOR US ALL.

So we need--badly need--immigrants.

Trump and MAGA fans--as seen in other threads--have a completely different take--that immigrants are the problem, not the solution.

Anti-immigration is anti american economy and pro higher taxes.

 

[SAJ-99]

They did it back then.

You are using a different internet than the rest of us.

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah this is a good question. Would love for some of you to say why you don't comply when a game warden asks for your "papers"

My feeling is that it's based on some implicit trust that he's there to do a job you respect.

If a game warden asks me for my papers (hunting license) when I'm in aisle 10 at walmart, or just walking down the sidewalk...I would tell them to go F themselves.

Ever heard of probable cause or reasonable suspicion? Different deal when you're holding a rifle, dressed in orange, out in the woods with a hunting season going on. You're ridiculous.

ICE is literally walking around asking people for their papers with no probable cause, that's unconstitutional.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Your analogy of showing a hunting license and providing papers of citizenship isn’t an apples to apples comparison under the law.

You agree to show a hunting license to a warden as part of the terms of privilege for buying a license. Apples to apples is showing a drivers license to an officer when you’re stopped in the process of driving.

No police officer or ICE agent is allowed to come into your house and demand that you show proof of citizenship without a warrant.

You can bet I am going to be plenty pissed off and ready to sue if I find out that my son’s 3rd generation American girlfriend who has Dominican ancestors is pulled into custody and required to show proof of citizenship.

Everyone agrees that legal immigration is a good thing and should be allowed. Why not give the folks who have already shown the initiative to get here and integrate into a productive role in society a path forward to legitimacy to work and pay taxes. Those folks aren’t necessarily choosing to avoid taxes to be intentionally illegal. They’re not paying taxes in order to stay under the radar.

1. Enforce the border.
2. Incarcerate and then deport any immigrants who are convicted of violent felonies.
3. Make a path forward for green card status for those here illegally but are gainfully employed and haven’t committed felonies, nor are perpetual dependents on our social safety net.

 

[cgasner1]

Your analogy of showing a hunting license and providing papers of citizenship isn’t an apples to apples comparison under the law.

You agree to show a hunting license to a warden as part of the terms of privilege for buying a license. Apples to apples is showing a drivers license to an officer when you’re stopped in the process of driving.

No police officer or ICE agent is allowed to come into your house and demand that you show proof of citizenship without a warrant.

You can bet I am going to be plenty pissed off and ready to sue if I find out that my son’s 3rd generation American girlfriend who has Dominican ancestors is pulled into custody and required to show proof of citizenship.

Everyone agrees that legal immigration is a good thing and should be allowed. Why not give the folks who have already shown the initiative to get here and integrate into a productive role in society a path forward to legitimacy to work and pay taxes. Those folks aren’t necessarily choosing to avoid taxes to be intentionally illegal. They’re not paying taxes in order to stay under the radar.

1. Enforce the border.
2. Incarcerate and then deport any immigrants who are convicted of violent felonies.
3. Make a path forward for green card status for those here illegally but are gainfully employed and haven’t committed felonies, nor are perpetual dependents on our social safety net.

Can’t have it both ways Gerald your either for or against immigration apparently even if I do 100% agree with you

 

[Nuts]

1. Enforce the border.
2. Incarcerate and then deport any immigrants who are convicted of violent felonies.
3. Make a path forward for green card status for those here illegally but are gainfully employed and haven’t committed felonies, nor are perpetual dependents on our social safety net.

No issue with any of that. It also addresses some of the challenges speculated above

 

[TexanSam]

I recently googled "Ice report, Montana" to try and get an understanding for what lakes were safe to drill holes in. The only info I got was related to immigration.

 

[TX Trophy Hunter]

I was willing to agree with that right up until he publicly humiliated trump in front of the entire press corps, and basically, the world. That was a low class move by an otherwise stand up guy. But if you look at his behavior, every now and then he made it about him (Obama) and just couldn't help himself in the moment. But those press dinner jokes were pre-planned and scripted. I don't give him a pass for those. I am 100% sure trump has never forgotten how he was humiliated, in person, on live tv by Obama. Presidents should not behave that way, I think we can all agree. And nobody, president or not, should behave the way this potus is behaving. I'm sure most of us can agree on that as well.

The OP's take is an incredible oversimplification of the challenges of dealing with immigration. IMO, Dubya had the best approach and more and more often these days, I miss that guy like I never thought I would.

That’s a good point. I just see that as a moment of weakness on Obama’s part versus a pattern of consistent narcissism with Trump. I also agree with you, Bush has more class than anyone.

 

[Nunjagottam]

Have not read all the replies, but one factor I don't see in the OP is the value immigration has to our economic interests in the US.

It's huge, and absolutely necessary--ever demographer and economist would agree.

Why?

The US Birth rate will fall below death rate in just a few years. We went through most of our lives with the huge flush of baby boomers contributing to our economy. Most of them will be retired or dead in just a few years. To maintain our economy, we need more babies born. Child bearing age people is MUCH lower than average over past years and we also know they do not have the same outlook on numbers of children they want to have as average in the past. Many want none--not something common in the past.

People are needed to fill jobs, and not just grow but maintain our economy. We are running out of people.

Basic government costs--policing, transportation and everything they do for us--need people paying taxes to fund.

Suddenly many less people and those expenses still have to be paid. Guess how that occurs? HIGHER TAXES FOR US ALL.

So we need--badly need--immigrants.

Trump and MAGA fans--as seen in other threads--have a completely different take--that immigrants are the problem, not the solution.

Anti-immigration is anti american economy and pro higher taxes.

The RNC enters the chat

 

[nrpate05]

When does ICE start arresting the business owners that hire illegal immigrants? If they know they can't get work here, they won't come...

 

[Gerald Martin]

I’m actually not anti-ICE or against enforcement of the law. I am against the way that Trump has leveraged where he’s deployed ICE and border patrol for political gain.

I’m against the systemic failure of our politicians to improve our border security and provide better solutions for legal immigration.

At the end of the day, I feel far more outrage over how the politically connected on both sides of the aisle enrich themselves in power and money at their constituents expense than I do when I find out the Hispanic guy that is hanging Sheetrock 10 hours a day didn’t give the government 30% of his gross pay.

This is not a Democrat vs Republican issue.

 

[The_Jim]

Have not read all the replies, but one factor I don't see in the OP is the value immigration has to our economic interests in the US.

It's huge, and absolutely necessary--ever demographer and economist would agree.

Why?

The US Birth rate will fall below death rate in just a few years. We went through most of our lives with the huge flush of baby boomers contributing to our economy. Most of them will be retired or dead in just a few years. To maintain our economy, we need more babies born. Child bearing age people is MUCH lower than average over past years and we also know they do not have the same outlook on numbers of children they want to have as average in the past. Many want none--not something common in the past.

People are needed to fill jobs, and not just grow but maintain our economy. We are running out of people.

Basic government costs--policing, transportation and everything they do for us--need people paying taxes to fund.

Suddenly many less people and those expenses still have to be paid. Guess how that occurs? HIGHER TAXES FOR US ALL.

So we need--badly need--immigrants.

Trump and MAGA fans--as seen in other threads--have a completely different take--that immigrants are the problem, not the solution.

Anti-immigration is anti american economy and pro higher taxes.

I live in a very red area and I don't think you could find many that are anti legal immigration. I'm also in the heart of the meat packing industry so we have watched illegal immigration completely disrupt our school systems. We just got another flyer from our public school administration lobbying to build a new school again - 34% of students English is their second language and 12% don't speak English. We built a new school less than 10 years ago and its already overcrowded. This isn't a border town, its a small town in Nebraska. The open border policy every administration has embraced the last 40+ years exploited poor people from poor countries.

 

[Forkyfinder]

ICE is literally walking around asking people for their papers with no probable cause, that's unconstitutional.

8 usc 1304 (e)

 

[Elkmagnet]

That’s a good point. I just see that as a moment of weakness on Obama’s part versus a pattern of consistent narcissism with Trump. I also agree with you, Bush has more class than anyone.

Bush and Obama would be like a breath of fresh air in 2026

 

[NR_Hunter]

I have no idea whether thats true or not since I have nothing to back that up either way. But what skin color is it?

The Brooklyn Center police chief went on TV and said ICE agents had pulled over some of his cops that we brown.

 

[Nick87]

The Brooklyn Center police chief went on TV and said ICE agents had pulled over some of his cops that we brown.

So its brown people then?