No King's Deer

[Irrelevant]

Fire typically improves wildlife habitat. I did not consider willful eradication since modern management of game species seeks to maintain self-sustaining herd size. Droughts are more common than non-droughts now, at least in southwest states, it has not seriously impacted herd stability. What has limited herd survival, recovery from winter die-off, even susceptibility to diseases like CWD and sheep pneumonia is habitat interruption and loss. Fragmenting habitat interferes with migration, which can endanger entire species including bison, wolves and grizzlies, like them or not. Loss of winter range habitat to development even including reservoirs, impacts of consumptive uses such as logging, mineral development and grazing (yes it is), recreation's intrusion to on everything from calving grounds to sheltering cover. Conflicts between predators and livestock are competition for habitat between people and wildlife.

Per AI, "Habitat is critically important to wildlife conservation because it is the most significant factor in species survival, providing the essential elements of food, water, and shelter, and a place for reproduction."

I've spent literally months of my life looking at great habitat almost devoid of critters. Why? Because IMO we've spent decades killing too many.

2025 Great Deer Desert Part 3?

If you were to guess, how many deer would to speculate are in this photo? We glass this area all morning and turned up exactly... zero deer. zero shots heard. We did managed to still hunt up 7 in the afternoon our of some bedding areas, all does with one tiny forky. When I asked my...

www.hunttalk.com

W@ h!gh buck

In the same vain as @SnowyMountaineer mentioned in another thread I find I'm getting more hesitant to talk about my hunts. Even the horribly unsuccessful ones (which, spoiler alert, this is). So there's not much story, other than @wa_archer and I can't crack this early season business. Dusting...

www.hunttalk.com

WA Live Deer Hunt!

HAHA sucker. There are no live deer in WA! For the 4th year in a row I have ventured into the Great Chelan County Deer Desert! In the hopes of finding a unicorn deer (actually needs to be a 3-pt buck but let's not be greedy). I know I swore off big game hunting just a couple of weeks ago. But...

www.hunttalk.com

I could go on...

 

[SAJ-99]

I've spent literally months of my life looking at great habitat almost devoid of critters. Why? Because IMO we've spent decades killing too many.

2025 Great Deer Desert Part 3?

If you were to guess, how many deer would to speculate are in this photo? We glass this area all morning and turned up exactly... zero deer. zero shots heard. We did managed to still hunt up 7 in the afternoon our of some bedding areas, all does with one tiny forky. When I asked my...

www.hunttalk.com

W@ h!gh buck

In the same vain as @SnowyMountaineer mentioned in another thread I find I'm getting more hesitant to talk about my hunts. Even the horribly unsuccessful ones (which, spoiler alert, this is). So there's not much story, other than @wa_archer and I can't crack this early season business. Dusting...

www.hunttalk.com

WA Live Deer Hunt!

HAHA sucker. There are no live deer in WA! For the 4th year in a row I have ventured into the Great Chelan County Deer Desert! In the hopes of finding a unicorn deer (actually needs to be a 3-pt buck but let's not be greedy). I know I swore off big game hunting just a couple of weeks ago. But...

www.hunttalk.com

I could go on...

Lewis and Clark also found game scare on the Columbia basin. I'm not sure what the reason is other than the it just isn't as productive as it would appear to the naked eye.

 

[Irrelevant]

My recollection of Undaunted Courage was that they didn't have issues until they got to the coast, which makes sense. You can't shoot it if you can't see it.
I believe the worst was going over Lolo pass, both directions.

 

[SAJ-99]

My recollection of Undaunted Courage was that they didn't have issues until they got to the coast, which makes sense. You can't shoot it if you can't see it.
I believe the worst was going over Lolo pass, both directions.

They had issues enough they ate dogs and horses. I have read some papers that claimed the introduction of horses and higher human density west of the Rockies had already had a negative impact on game populations. However, the expedition survived the winter at Clatsop on Roosevelt elk, so much so they were sick of it by the time they left. Probably had enough of dried salmon too.

 

[Irrelevant]

They had issues enough they ate dogs and horses. I have read some papers that claimed the introduction of horses and higher human density west of the Rockies had already had a negative impact on game populations. However, the expedition survived the winter at Clatsop on Roosevelt elk, so much so they were sick of it by the time they left. Probably had enough of dried salmon too.

we were killing too many even then!

I suppose salmon mostly support a lot of people... most of the year, but when the dried fish runs out, and the springers haven't returned yet, they likely hammered whatever was around.

 

[Elky Welky]

This thread has gone full feræ naturæ.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

I’m not sure I agree, the New Mexico landowner tag program is very well structured in my opinion. Colorado’s program is decent as well, but does not provide the same level of public access that New Mexico does.

And no thanks on the other part

13 pages now! I ain’t reading all that. I did read the first page though and found an argument for E-Plus that I’ve disagreed with and still do. @Treeshark, good to see you’ve kept your contrary argument going as well. Because if we all agreed one way or the other then there would be no discussion and progress towards any goal would stagnate.
Now with that said, I’m today conceding an ugly virtue for E-Plus: poaching. In the time since I last cyber battled on this E-Plus I have spoken with several land owners and ranchers from rural Sandoval County through Pecos on over to Vegas about elk. All of them brought up competition with elk and manners of mitigating said competition. The preferred direct mitigation was eradication.
Now landowners may still think G&F ain’t worth a goddamn, and they’re right, but E-Plus gives producers who own NM properties an alternative which I did not previously see. Instead of creating shoulder seasons or giving landowners summertime crop tags, G&F incentivizes landowners to poach fewer elk. Yeah, I still think it’s bullshit and corrupt like a Russian election. Yet I see now what I didn’t hear earlier because I was being too righteous and not listening enough.

 

[Treeshark]

Great point @Benfromalbuquerque.

Data suggests that landowner tags do indeed reduce poaching, but only if they are transferrable.

 

[antlerradar]

Great point @Benfromalbuquerque.

Data suggests that landowner tags do indeed reduce poaching, but only if they are transferrable.

The last thing I want to do is to reward someone that is willing to poach with a tag.

 

[antlerradar]

The last thing I want to do is to reward someone that is willing to poach with a tag.

Just thinking, If we did away with seasons and bag limits we could just about eliminate poaching.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Just thinking, If we did away with seasons and bag limits we could just about eliminate poaching.

Call it opportunity and point out how the funds for enforcement could be used elsewhere? I bet there’s a lot of folks who would buy into that.

 

[Irrelevant]

Call it opportunity and point out how the funds for enforcement could be used elsewhere? I bet there’s a lot of folks who would buy into that.

Definitely would be a lot of people who would support that.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Great point @Benfromalbuquerque.

Data suggests that landowner tags do indeed reduce poaching, but only if they are transferrable.

Just thinking, If we did away with seasons and bag limits we could just about eliminate poaching.

One could just as easily say that when a landowner finds value in an animal, they tend to view it as an asset instead of a liability. The mechanism that NM chose isn't politically viable in states where it hasn't already been implemented. However, when you look at the vast majority of landowners who engage in public access programs, habitat restoration, etc, and yes - even leasing to hunt clubs and outfitters, you see that the value isn't just the license or permit to sell.

The NM system might make it easier for landowners to monetize the resource and find that value, but what is the offset to the public who no longer have access to that resource? How many poachers did E-plus create through the unequitable allocation of the resource?

 

[Treeshark]

what is the offset to the public who no longer have access to that resource?

Why would the public no longer have access to the resource?

 

[Ben Lamb]

Why would the public no longer have access?

Those licenses, once awarded through a randomized draw, no go to the person who can pay for the opportunity. For resident hunters, that's a bad place to be. And if you can't draw a tag, a lot of guys will use that as an excuse to go find a critter anyway.

There's a history of poaching the US that's directly tied to economic indicators as well. Removing a cheap license in favor of an expensive transferable license doesn't fill anyone's freezer that needs it. Plus, you know, tea, taxes and the $*)Q!#@$ British.

Down with King George.

 

[Treeshark]

Those licenses, once awarded through a randomized draw, no go to the person who can pay for the opportunity.

I think you are conflating the opportunity to pursue game (tag) with the game itself. They are not the same thing.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think you are conflating the opportunity to pursue game (tag) with the game itself. They are not the same thing.

When you remove the legal option that's inexpensive and available to all, you invite poor behavior to replace that mechanism. That's pretty much human nature.

 

[Treeshark]

When you remove the legal option that's inexpensive and available to all, you invite poor behavior to replace that mechanism. That's pretty much human nature.

What legal option is being removed by the addition of transferable tags again?

That’s a slippery slope argument that I’m not sure holds much water. If it did, it’s an argument against what raising tag prices which I don’t think is rational either.

 

[TOGIE]

I dunno guys.

Poachers gonna poach. Feels kinda moot to me.

 

[Treeshark]

I dunno guys.

Poachers gonna poach. Feels kinda moot to me.

Agree.