Muzzle brakes

[Ben Lamb]

Dang it.

On muzzle breaks in particular, I think whomever said that it's about tends in shooting is right. They're not for me, but if someone else wants to use them, go for it. They're loud, don't seem to add much to the overall accuracy, add weight and make everyone else uncomfortable at the range, but whatever.

If it's for recoil management, there are better ways to do that, IMO that don't involve offending other range rats. I don't see a practical advantage for them in the field, but I do love diversity.

For the record, I love shooting long range. 300 yards is a lot of fun.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Randy, Some ultra-lightweight rifles, built on heavy magnum cartridges, need a muzzle brake to cut back on the recoil, not just for the pleasure of the shooter, but the recoil can bust several of today's ultra lightweight stocks such as the McEdge. When I had my 300RUM built, the gunsmith refused to put an edge stock on it if I wasn't going to have a break put on it as well. He said the stock would eventually crack, and he'd be fixing something I was unhappy with. I went with the standard fill stock.. because brakes are for limp-wristed deaf sissies like roadhunter.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

Fin, I believe the comments related to the growing interest in long range shooting, last ten years of war (which have popularized the image of being a tactical operator), and the gun industry are driving the majority of this. For hunting purposes, I share your traditional view.

From the perspective of a tactical shooter they make sense as they promote rapid reaquisition of your target, and prevent the development of flinch in the shooter, given they are wearing enough ear protection. These big calibers are neccessary in environments like AFG as they launch a bullet that stays stable further. 5.56 drops below the sound barrier at about 600m and 7.63x51/.308 at about 800, and this has a huge destabilizing affect on the round, dramatically reducing accuracy. This being said, the military has gone beyond breaks at this point, and is using supressors on almost all of its precision rifles, to reduce recoil and over pressure. IMO, over pressure is a much surer cause of flinching for the LE/MIL because of the need to do alot of shooting inside, or out of a building; which applifies over pressure dramatically. This is where my hatred of the big rifles comes from. I like the effect they accomplish, but hate to be around them.

 

[shoots-straight]

In talking with a local gunsmith, he said that many people shooting varmint rounds like the .220 Swift, .223 WSSM, 22-250 and others where getting muzzle brakes so they could hold the rifle steady during the shot and see the bullet hitting it's target. I thought that made some sense.

Carry on.

 

[jryoung]

My Dad put a brake on his 300WBY last year when he rebarrled. I tried to talk him out of it, or to re-chamber to 7mag, but he has an emotional attachment to the round and the rifle that he has been shooting with for 40 years. He's 70, shoots a bunch and is already hard of hearing. He didn't want to take the beating, but didn't want to give up his baby. The tank still weighs almost 10lbs scoped, and I have to admit it's a lot of fun to shoot outside the muzzle blast...good thing I don't have to sit at the range with him.


As for the comments about the younger guys at the range, I would guess there is a fair bit of marketing sway and aesthetics that are aiding in their decision to get them.

 

[MThuntr]

I shot a couple days ago with a group of college guys and an older gent. The college guys were shooting what looked to be Remington 700 Stainless all in 30-06 (I managed to get a couple boxes of empties out of them). None had muzzlebrakes but they were all wearing 50mm objectives. They were lobbing rounds at the 3-400 yard targets. One guy was spotting..."5 inches right...no 4 inches low...you missed the target" meanwhile the shooter made adjustments after every shot. It was so windy that I had noticeable wind drift at 100 yards so in the end I doubt his rifle was actually on.

Before I sat down at the bench, I watched as the older gent was finishing up his shooting...a BAR in 338WinMag. He flinched so bad when he dropped the hammer on an empty chamber that it looked like he actually shot. He said he had just shot a box of ammo in his 30-06 and now was shooting his newest rifle. He couldn't hit anything with that flinch...a brake would have definitely helped. It was loud enough so I'm glad he was done when I wanted to shoot.

I'll admit my 7mm-08 wears a"big scope" Burris 4.5x14x44 scope but only because I didn't have the funds for the one I wanted.

I've always been curious about suppressors. It's not like they make the rifle mouse fart quiet so as to give an advantage over game or be used in paoching. I can see the benefit to the shooter and bystanders especially when hunting. I've considered one for my AR as that dang thing has a lot of bark.

 

[Cornell2012]

Anyone know of an actual scientific study that shows how much more noise the brakes cause? I think it'd be pretty cool to see a graph of sound levels before/after at different points around a shooter.

I typically do the plugs + muffs at the range and after hearing 4 or 5 shots from a gun with a brake, I'm ready to go home.

So far what I've seen from this thread:
Practical uses - Reduces recoil from big loads, or for people who are recoil-sensitive (or for stocks that are recoil-sensitive). Useful for people who want to reduce muzzle jump as well.

Complaints - Loud. Possibly to the point of being inconsiderate to others.

Reason popular - Some combination of practical uses and marketing success. Maybe add in military experience and familiarity?

 

[MKotur325]

Fin, I believe the comments related to the growing interest in long range shooting, last ten years of war (which have popularized the image of being a tactical operator), and the gun industry are driving the majority of this. For hunting purposes, I share your traditional view.

From the perspective of a tactical shooter they make sense as they promote rapid reaquisition of your target, and prevent the development of flinch in the shooter, given they are wearing enough ear protection. These big calibers are neccessary in environments like AFG as they launch a bullet that stays stable further. 5.56 drops below the sound barrier at about 600m and 7.63x51/.308 at about 800, and this has a huge destabilizing affect on the round, dramatically reducing accuracy. This being said, the military has gone beyond breaks at this point, and is using supressors on almost all of its precision rifles, to reduce recoil and over pressure. IMO, over pressure is a much surer cause of flinching for the LE/MIL because of the need to do alot of shooting inside, or out of a building; which applifies over pressure dramatically. This is where my hatred of the big rifles comes from. I like the effect they accomplish, but hate to be around them.

This is well stated.

As an Avid long range shooter, I can attest that the precision rifle community feeds off developments in the .MIL sector and visa versa. 4 years retail experience selling firearms has probably jaded me as most hunters twice my age. The science of Exterior Ballisitcs has grown in leaps and bounds in the last decade. There is a certain appeal to people of being able to spot your own hits or misses on steel. One other minor benefit of Muzzle breaks to the hunter, with the reverb and distribution of the noise during a shot, many people claim it is harder for an animal to place the sounds, and thus less likely to spook the animal on a miss. I don't hunt with breaks, so I cannot confirm that rumor. To me this appeal is not worth the increase in noise and Overpressure. Overpressure from a break can be really nasty. I one had a range day around some folks shooting an Armalite AR-50. After about 6-7 rounds I was nauseous and had one of the worst headaches of my life it was bad enough that I headed for the clubhouse thinking I was going to puke the whole time. That being said... That AR-50 has about the same amount of recoil as a run of the mill hunting weight .243win. If you are right behind it, the overpressure is much less dramatic. There is no doubt that muzzle breaks are effective, there's also no debate that they are loud and can be obnoxious to shooters around you.

The best way I know to see the benefit (recoil and muzzle jump reduction) without the noise is with a suppressor.

Some stocks can also take a mercury tube recoil reducer, which helps reducing recoil by giving the illusion of additional weight with the mercury sliding in a tube (also somewhat popular in Shotguns), Most of the HS Precision stocks were capable of being fitted with mercury tubes, last I checked.

A GOOD recoil pad can also help. Pachmayr Decelerators and the Limbsaver pads are both quite good in my finding, that is assuming that the rifle doesn't already wear a good pad.

I rarely hunt alone, based on that; and the fact that one of my main hunting partners is already hard of hearing, I choose not to have any rifles that have a break. I have also chosen to mitigate cartridge selection based on that fact. If you want to shoot a Big Magnum, go for it. My .325 is literally as much as I can shoot well without a break.

One final thought is recoil velocity. The higher velocity the cartridge the faster the rifle will recoil, it's just physics. Some people find slower recoiling cartridges easier to handle. I.E. a .45-70, Ever hear of someone describe recoil as a shove more than a punch? Same thought. The standard medium bores, .35 Whelen, .35 Rem, .338Fed and similar are incredibly hard hitting hunting rounds at short and moderate ranges and for some people can be easier to handle off the bench than faster cartridges like a .338RUM or a .300WBY.

Hope that can provide some additional insight without being inflamatory...

 

[belly-deep]

In talking with a local gunsmith, he said that many people shooting varmint rounds like the .220 Swift, .223 WSSM, 22-250 and others where getting muzzle brakes so they could hold the rifle steady during the shot and see the bullet hitting it's target. I thought that made some sense.

Carry on.

Varmint cartridges in varmint guns should allow you to do that anyway...

 

[belly-deep]

I just love reading stuff like this. Add 1 more type of hunter to the dislike list. At this point it might be easier to just say you dislike all other hunters.

So people who have guns with a muzzle break are idiots who cant' hit anything?

BTW ammo for some of those is a whole lot more than $80 a box. That will barely cover brass on a 30-378. Most ammo for that caliber is appx $130 a box.

To those hunters who use magnum rifles and have a muzzle brakes. Dont' sweat the hate from these folks. Nothing wrong with having a muzzle brake or a magnum rifle. It's a free country and you dont' need a Montana permission slip to own or shoot one with a brake. The haters gonna hate.

What is it with you anyway?

 

[MKotur325]

Anyone know of an actual scientific study that shows how much more noise the brakes cause? I think it'd be pretty cool to see a graph of sound levels before/after at different points around a shooter.

Here's a link to a study that was performed with the Styer AUG with and without the Muzzle Break.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/236945881_Sound_Pressure_Level_of_the_Steyr_AUG_Rifle

It showed an increase of 5-10dB sPL depending on angle. Decibels are a not a linear scale. an increase of 10bD is typically held as TWICE as loud. Also, the study found an average sPL from all angles of 168dB which is about 40-50 dB higher than the generally accepted pain threshold, and approx 28 dB higher than the level for permanent hearing loss from short burst noise. I believe all measurements were taken at 1meter from the muzzle.

This is all with a 5.56x45 (.223rem) rifle. I would assume slightly higher numbers with our traditional big game cartridges

 

[Drake4]

Man, this thread is another good reminder why I don't contribute to this site anymore. Talk about a waste of time...seems like every time I check in here there is another couple of threads like this with people bitching at each other.

Anyways, since Randy asked a question that I have some experience with, and I know and like Randy..I figured I could chime in.

I have a custom built 280AI. I've had it for the last 7-8 years. It's not what I'd consider a lightweight gun, probably 8 pounds with my 50mm "oversized" scope (as some on here call it). And it does not have what I would consider heavy recoil. I don't consider myself to be a long range shooter, but am very comfortable out to 6-700 yards consistantly with my turrett. I've even shot a coyote with this rifle at 1,010 yards. I do my own reloading and shoot more than the average guy...all year round. Last fall I put a break on it. Not because I couldn't handle the recoil. I like it so far, it allows me to keep my barrel down and keep my "oversize" scope on the target after the shot pretty much 100% of the time. I hunt by myself quite a bit, and love being able to spot my hits, through my scope at all ranges.

I did not have any change in accuracy after the break was installed. I did have a slight change in POI that I had to adjust too, but not major..and that was expected. I'm glad I had it installed and would do it again. Increase noise is the only down side I've experienced.

Carry on...

 

[Big Fin]

Finally, some good information that was very helpful. Thanks to you who provided it. Those are all considerations and old fart like me would not have thought about.

With that good information, this thread is locked.

 

[Cornell2012]

Here's a link to a study that was performed with the Styer AUG with and without the Muzzle Break.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/236945881_Sound_Pressure_Level_of_the_Steyr_AUG_Rifle

It showed an increase of 5-10dB sPL depending on angle. Decibels are a not a linear scale. an increase of 10bD is typically held as TWICE as loud. Also, the study found an average sPL from all angles of 168dB which is about 40-50 dB higher than the generally accepted pain threshold, and approx 28 dB higher than the level for permanent hearing loss from short burst noise. I believe all measurements were taken at 1meter from the muzzle.

This is all with a 5.56x45 (.223rem) rifle. I would assume slightly higher numbers with our traditional big game cartridges

That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Also interested in what larger calibers would read.

Something to note: 168dB is really loud (but also at 3 feet away from the muzzle). If I understand how noise levels work correctly, wearing ear plugs or muffs will reduce this by ~30 dB depending on the design (just straight subtraction of the decibel levels), which is still in the ballpark of "permanent hearing damage." Using both would get you down to around the pain threshold.