Tom
New member
Its more like going to the international food festival, where women from all over the world bring out their ethnic foods, than what you're imagining.
MT's I-143 under attack
- Thread starter BuzzH
- Start date
Tom
New member
That would be like buying a tag, that would be like block grants to ranchers in Montana for hosting hunters, that would be like expenses of the wildlife department. We all pay for it, like the Pittman-Robertson bill, we pay for it, because it costs money. If you don't spend money on your wife, she how long she hangs around.
tmsander
New member
Nothing I’d like to have banned is coming to mind. I don’t even think banning game farm shoots is appropriate. In this thread I’ve just described my interpretation of what happened in Montana. I think these shoots are a horrible thing and that they are terrible for legitimate hunting. I wish they didn’t exist. But I really don’t feel getting the government involved in this issue is the right thing to do. I just understand (I think… can’t really speak for them) what some of the people in Montana (and now Colorado) are thinking. What I really, really wish is that there were no market for these things, and that that would be the method of their undoing. Won’t happen, unfortunately, as there are plenty of egomaniacs out there that will do this. And the legitimate sportsmen are sadly left holding the bag.
Manitoba prohibits hunt farms
this document web posted: Thursday January 10, 2002
By Ian Bell
Brandon bureau
An effort to ban hunt farms in Manitoba was met by defiance last week.
The Manitoba government has enacted amendments to the Wildlife Act aimed at eliminating the hunting of wildlife in a fenced or enclosed area, a practice that the province calls penned hunting.
Under the legislation, no new hunt farms will be allowed, and existing operations will have no more than two years to wind down their ventures.
But Peter Kalden, who raises fallow deer, wild boar and bison near St. Martin, Man., said the legislation will have little effect on him.
He still plans to allow people onto his farm to shoot fallow deer and wild boar in large, fenced areas.
Rather than calling it a hunt, he will call it a harvest, whereby clients buy the animals and kill them for meat.
Kalden believes exemptions in the legislation will allow him to do that. Although some tracking of the animals may be involved before they are shot, he said they will be harvested within common agricultural practices.
"We are selling meat on the hoof. That's what we have been doing and that's what we will be doing."
The province, however, is confident the legislation has the teeth needed to do away with hunt farms.
If loopholes appear that allow such ventures to continue, the government will correct them, said Gordon Graham, a legislation specialist with Manitoba Conservation's wildlife branch.
"The direction from government has been to prohibit this activity."
Graham said the prohibition on penned hunting is driven by public opposition to the practice. A ban on penned hunting was one of the promises made by Manitoba's NDP party before coming to power in the last provincial election.
Kalden said critics of what he does are "mentally deranged." He considers killing an animal on his farm more humane than loading it on a trailer, hauling it to an abattoir and slaughtering it there.
"That's the issue here. It's farm kill versus abattoir kill."
There are at least 10 hunt farms in Manitoba. Fallow deer and wild boar are two of the most common species offered for hunts by those operations, said Graham.
Saskatchewan allows hunt farms, while Alberta does not allow penned hunting of elk, deer and other cervids.
Manitoba has no clearly defined compensation package for those who decide to wind down their ventures within two years.
Whether those operations would be eligible for compensation will be decided on a case-by-case basis, Graham said.
"The individuals will have to show they're eligible, based on existing rules."
According to the pro-vince, hunting of farmed elk is already illegal in Manitoba. The government's latest action offers no hope that will change any time soon.
Allowing hunts on elk farms would give the owners another outlet for marketing their older bulls. Manitoba elk growers had lobbied for that in recent years.
"Now we're going to be selling them for hamburger," said Merv Farmer, president of the Manitoba Elk Growers Association. "They're still going to be killed for meat."
An alternative is to sell the bulls into other jurisdictions where hunting of farmed elk is allowed.
"It's just one other piece of bad news," said Charlebois.
this document web posted: Thursday January 10, 2002
By Ian Bell
Brandon bureau
An effort to ban hunt farms in Manitoba was met by defiance last week.
The Manitoba government has enacted amendments to the Wildlife Act aimed at eliminating the hunting of wildlife in a fenced or enclosed area, a practice that the province calls penned hunting.
Under the legislation, no new hunt farms will be allowed, and existing operations will have no more than two years to wind down their ventures.
But Peter Kalden, who raises fallow deer, wild boar and bison near St. Martin, Man., said the legislation will have little effect on him.
He still plans to allow people onto his farm to shoot fallow deer and wild boar in large, fenced areas.
Rather than calling it a hunt, he will call it a harvest, whereby clients buy the animals and kill them for meat.
Kalden believes exemptions in the legislation will allow him to do that. Although some tracking of the animals may be involved before they are shot, he said they will be harvested within common agricultural practices.
"We are selling meat on the hoof. That's what we have been doing and that's what we will be doing."
The province, however, is confident the legislation has the teeth needed to do away with hunt farms.
If loopholes appear that allow such ventures to continue, the government will correct them, said Gordon Graham, a legislation specialist with Manitoba Conservation's wildlife branch.
"The direction from government has been to prohibit this activity."
Graham said the prohibition on penned hunting is driven by public opposition to the practice. A ban on penned hunting was one of the promises made by Manitoba's NDP party before coming to power in the last provincial election.
Kalden said critics of what he does are "mentally deranged." He considers killing an animal on his farm more humane than loading it on a trailer, hauling it to an abattoir and slaughtering it there.
"That's the issue here. It's farm kill versus abattoir kill."
There are at least 10 hunt farms in Manitoba. Fallow deer and wild boar are two of the most common species offered for hunts by those operations, said Graham.
Saskatchewan allows hunt farms, while Alberta does not allow penned hunting of elk, deer and other cervids.
Manitoba has no clearly defined compensation package for those who decide to wind down their ventures within two years.
Whether those operations would be eligible for compensation will be decided on a case-by-case basis, Graham said.
"The individuals will have to show they're eligible, based on existing rules."
According to the pro-vince, hunting of farmed elk is already illegal in Manitoba. The government's latest action offers no hope that will change any time soon.
Allowing hunts on elk farms would give the owners another outlet for marketing their older bulls. Manitoba elk growers had lobbied for that in recent years.
"Now we're going to be selling them for hamburger," said Merv Farmer, president of the Manitoba Elk Growers Association. "They're still going to be killed for meat."
An alternative is to sell the bulls into other jurisdictions where hunting of farmed elk is allowed.
"It's just one other piece of bad news," said Charlebois.
I didn't think I would ever see Hunters supporting a PETA initiative. Anytime the Government is permitted, with or without the consent of the people, to place the rights of animals above the rights of people, we are headed in a dangerous direction.
*
There is certainly not one among us who objects to the killing of deer, elk, buffalo, antelope, or other animals. So what's the argument? Shooting them in a pen, or shooting them in a pen and calling it hunting?
*
No one who eats meat from a store, should find the killing of animals in a pen objectionable. That's the way that all beef is slaughtered. So is it narrowed to shooting specific kinds of animals in a pen? Game animals? Well where the hell is the game?
*
We don't meet the animals on thier own terms. If we did, we'd all loose, everytime. We use superior technology, and our mental advantage to kill the animals when we can find them. The only part changed by shooting them in a pen is the finding part.
*
Why are so many so insensed about finding animals? Not everyone has the time or the skill to find animals in the wild. So, if they have the money, they pay someone for the right to shoot an animal in a pen.
So what this entire discussion is about is the ability to find animals in the wild. Why is that such an issue?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-29-2003 11:44: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>
*
There is certainly not one among us who objects to the killing of deer, elk, buffalo, antelope, or other animals. So what's the argument? Shooting them in a pen, or shooting them in a pen and calling it hunting?
*
No one who eats meat from a store, should find the killing of animals in a pen objectionable. That's the way that all beef is slaughtered. So is it narrowed to shooting specific kinds of animals in a pen? Game animals? Well where the hell is the game?
*
We don't meet the animals on thier own terms. If we did, we'd all loose, everytime. We use superior technology, and our mental advantage to kill the animals when we can find them. The only part changed by shooting them in a pen is the finding part.
*
Why are so many so insensed about finding animals? Not everyone has the time or the skill to find animals in the wild. So, if they have the money, they pay someone for the right to shoot an animal in a pen.
So what this entire discussion is about is the ability to find animals in the wild. Why is that such an issue?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-29-2003 11:44: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>
BuzzH
Well-known member
If you dont know the answer to that Danr, you're a lost cause.
"Why are so many so insensed about finding animals? Not everyone has the time or the skill to find animals in the wild. So, if they have the money, they pay someone for the right to shoot an animal in a pen. ",,,,,,,,,,danr
then take up some other sport, like bowling
then take up some other sport, like bowling
This got hammered pretty hard each way. Now would everyone also wave their magic wand and list the other revolting things you'd outlaw. Hell, anything from hunting when the animals are breeding, ATVs, roads, draws, quotas, nonres,.......lets list them out and if enough of us agree then lets make it happen, take it to our F&G folks and make them consider them.
Tom
New member
"you're a lost cause" Lost to the ban game farms cause you mean I presume. I think he made a good argument. michaelr, what is the publics objection to those operations in Manitoba, the article didn't say. Do you have info. on that?
Lostagain wants to find something else to ban. Come on, name it you banners! How about while getting a drink, while mating, while going to food, while eating, while leaving food, while bedded down? How about banning guns shooting over 3000ft/sec., kind of like bows over 65% letoff. Maybe we should lower that?
Come on, name something you guys want to ban.
ha ha
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-29-2003 13:05: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>
Lostagain wants to find something else to ban. Come on, name it you banners! How about while getting a drink, while mating, while going to food, while eating, while leaving food, while bedded down? How about banning guns shooting over 3000ft/sec., kind of like bows over 65% letoff. Maybe we should lower that?
Come on, name something you guys want to ban.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-29-2003 13:05: Message edited by: Tom ]</font>
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tom, dont you have some game farm feeders to fill or some high fence to repair?
Look, keep your game farm agenda in Texas. The last thing anyone from Montana needs is a half-wit Texan telling them how to run THEIR STATE AND THEIR WILDLIFE.
Look, keep your game farm agenda in Texas. The last thing anyone from Montana needs is a half-wit Texan telling them how to run THEIR STATE AND THEIR WILDLIFE.
No Buzz, I'm not a lost cause. I'm just trying to figure out what makes any of us so damned smart that we have the right to tell other people how to live thier lives.
There are lots of things in life that I don't like. One of them is self-satisfied folks who think that for some reason or another they are the authority on what should and what shouldn't be.
The only rule for existance in this world is that if it doesn't hurt anyone else, then it's OK. There are too many rules and restricitions on life as it is. I don't think we need any more. Personally, I don't give a damn if Joe Schwartz from New York City wants to shoot an Elk in the middle of time square at midnight on New Years Eve. As long as he doesn't miss and hurt someone else, I'm all for letting him do it. How much difference do you think it makes to the Elk whether he's shot in New York or in Montana? He still dead.
You kids think that because you do something in one fashion that's the only fashion in which it should be done. That's a pretty narrow point of view on anything. Especially for folks who claim to be freedom loving 'mericans.....
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-29-2003 13:44: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>
There are lots of things in life that I don't like. One of them is self-satisfied folks who think that for some reason or another they are the authority on what should and what shouldn't be.
The only rule for existance in this world is that if it doesn't hurt anyone else, then it's OK. There are too many rules and restricitions on life as it is. I don't think we need any more. Personally, I don't give a damn if Joe Schwartz from New York City wants to shoot an Elk in the middle of time square at midnight on New Years Eve. As long as he doesn't miss and hurt someone else, I'm all for letting him do it. How much difference do you think it makes to the Elk whether he's shot in New York or in Montana? He still dead.
You kids think that because you do something in one fashion that's the only fashion in which it should be done. That's a pretty narrow point of view on anything. Especially for folks who claim to be freedom loving 'mericans.....
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-29-2003 13:44: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>
Point Creep
Well-known member
Dan.. I, for one, won't tell you how to live your life. I mean .. if you want to shoot a captive elk, bison, house cat, feral milk goat, screw a fat chick, or take a bong hit, drop acid, hire five hookers to suck your toes and stick foriegn objects up your butt... cool!! None of my business, but don't cry if I make fun of you...
Now, if you expect me to PAY MONEY for you to do those things, and if you expect me to PAY MONEY for people to manage you doing those things, when they could be doing the things I'M PAYING THEM TO DO... that's where I have a problem. That's what was happening in MT. We were funding canned elk hunts with FWP cash. Now.. I'll vote whatever I can against that idea.. BECAUSE IT'S WRONG!
Now bite me.
Now, if you expect me to PAY MONEY for you to do those things, and if you expect me to PAY MONEY for people to manage you doing those things, when they could be doing the things I'M PAYING THEM TO DO... that's where I have a problem. That's what was happening in MT. We were funding canned elk hunts with FWP cash. Now.. I'll vote whatever I can against that idea.. BECAUSE IT'S WRONG!
Now bite me.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I mean .. if you want to shoot a captive elk, bison, house cat, feral milk goat, screw a fat chick, or take a bong hit, drop acid, hire five hookers to suck your toes and stick foriegn objects up your butt... cool!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you could offer a place that offers all that in one day, you'd have my undying attention!!!!
BuzzH
Well-known member
Danr, well, you've now completely removed all doubt, you're definately a lost cause... and thats really sad.
I find it repulsive that a supposed "hunter" could make the arguement you just did...shows how much you really care about wildlife.
What a shit world its becoming when a "hunter" sees nothing wrong with domesticating wild animals so they can be blasted by folks too damn stupid and lazy to do it right. It isnt about hunting anymore, its about killing and money. When a person sets foot on a game farm, they are no longer a hunter, just someone paying to kill.
I find it repulsive that a supposed "hunter" could make the arguement you just did...shows how much you really care about wildlife.
What a shit world its becoming when a "hunter" sees nothing wrong with domesticating wild animals so they can be blasted by folks too damn stupid and lazy to do it right. It isnt about hunting anymore, its about killing and money. When a person sets foot on a game farm, they are no longer a hunter, just someone paying to kill.
Tom
New member
Hey Buzz, bear with me here, imagine we put some wild animals on an island, say Corsica in the Mediterranian sea, for example, a pretty big island. So far from other land, they can't swim off of it, or at least its very unlikely.
1) Would they then become domesticated?
2) If we high fenced an entire state, would all the animals inside, where there is plenty of cover, water, and habitat, then become domesticated?
1) Would they then become domesticated?
2) If we high fenced an entire state, would all the animals inside, where there is plenty of cover, water, and habitat, then become domesticated?
Point Creep
Well-known member
Tom.. You have a point! Really the North American continent is just a big island! We are ALL canned hunters!!
But remember, if you would shoot a elk in a pen in MT.. you also enjoy gargling manspoo.
But remember, if you would shoot a elk in a pen in MT.. you also enjoy gargling manspoo.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Hey Tom, bear with me here...When was the last time an entire state was fenced? When did you stop believing in the Easter Bunny?
You can try all you want, but you will never convince me that hunting behind the wire in Texas is hunting. It isnt, wont ever be, and thats final. You also wont be seeing me hunting down there, doesnt even come close to being even slightly interesting. I object to the way Texas "manages" its wildlife, or what was once wildlife, I object to all the exotics they introduced, etc. its bullshit, all the way around. I object to having to pay for your animal, pay more for larger ones, or pay for a lease, guranteed "hunts", etc. etc. etc. But, if that floats your boat, kill a bunch for me too. BUT, dont ask me to pay for your animals or your lease...
Like I said before, keep that shit in Texas and quit trying to tell Montana how to run its wildlife.
You can try all you want, but you will never convince me that hunting behind the wire in Texas is hunting. It isnt, wont ever be, and thats final. You also wont be seeing me hunting down there, doesnt even come close to being even slightly interesting. I object to the way Texas "manages" its wildlife, or what was once wildlife, I object to all the exotics they introduced, etc. its bullshit, all the way around. I object to having to pay for your animal, pay more for larger ones, or pay for a lease, guranteed "hunts", etc. etc. etc. But, if that floats your boat, kill a bunch for me too. BUT, dont ask me to pay for your animals or your lease...
Like I said before, keep that shit in Texas and quit trying to tell Montana how to run its wildlife.
Now you see Greenhorn, my arguement is exactly opposed to you as a taxpayer having to pay for any of that. My entire philosophy is based on self subsistance. As soon as you have to rely on someone else to support what ever it is that you want to do, then you make them a part of your act and they deserve a say.
But more toward my original point, when you start making fun of me, then you begin to infringe on my freedom to live my life. What gives you the right to laugh at me whatever I want to do. Just thinking that you have that option indicates that you feel like you are better than me. Perhaps smarter, richer, "whatever"er, subsequently entitled to laugh at what I choose to do. Just what on God's green earth makes you think that you have a right to laugh at me or anyone, what ever I choose to do, unless I am willing to laugh at myself? So I will blame you if you laugh.
Buzz, If my major concern was the safety of wildlife, I would be adamantly opposed to hunting. There is nothing about killing an animal that is conducive to that animals prolonged life. What I care about is the propriety of life. That all things are in their proper perspective and that everyone is entitled to thier own viewpoint. How does shooting an animal in a pen kill it any more dead than shooting it in the wild? If I pay the same money to the state to shoot it in a pen as I would to shoot it in the wild, how does the state loose or gain anything in the transaction?
You seemingly take hunting as a sacred gift that should be guarded. I take hunting as a pasttime that I enjoy. Life and Liberty are the sacred gifts. Family is a sacred gift. Hunting is not synonomous with any of them. Hunting is something I do because I find it enjoyable.
Seems to me it would do you and Greenhorn both some good to spend some days as the hunted, with your lives in the balance. Belive me, that puts an entirely new perspective on lots of things. Including hunting.
But more toward my original point, when you start making fun of me, then you begin to infringe on my freedom to live my life. What gives you the right to laugh at me whatever I want to do. Just thinking that you have that option indicates that you feel like you are better than me. Perhaps smarter, richer, "whatever"er, subsequently entitled to laugh at what I choose to do. Just what on God's green earth makes you think that you have a right to laugh at me or anyone, what ever I choose to do, unless I am willing to laugh at myself? So I will blame you if you laugh.
Buzz, If my major concern was the safety of wildlife, I would be adamantly opposed to hunting. There is nothing about killing an animal that is conducive to that animals prolonged life. What I care about is the propriety of life. That all things are in their proper perspective and that everyone is entitled to thier own viewpoint. How does shooting an animal in a pen kill it any more dead than shooting it in the wild? If I pay the same money to the state to shoot it in a pen as I would to shoot it in the wild, how does the state loose or gain anything in the transaction?
You seemingly take hunting as a sacred gift that should be guarded. I take hunting as a pasttime that I enjoy. Life and Liberty are the sacred gifts. Family is a sacred gift. Hunting is not synonomous with any of them. Hunting is something I do because I find it enjoyable.
Seems to me it would do you and Greenhorn both some good to spend some days as the hunted, with your lives in the balance. Belive me, that puts an entirely new perspective on lots of things. Including hunting.
