MT Mule Deer Symposium

[belly-deep]

Belly-deep.....you are right, hunting the rut is a large time and not to mention a great marketing tool for the State of Montana and their license sales, and a great marketing tool for the outfitting industry as well, because as you stated it is different than any other Western state. I would surely like to think though that if the state of Montana as a whole could get back on the "trophy mule deer map" that it too would be a significant marketing tool for all involved and then maybe Montana could justify the high priced NR license fees as well. Just a thought.

I guess maybe that is the root of our disagreement. I don't believe MT did ever or could ever compete with the rest of the pack in terms of trophy quality. It might get a little better, but only incrementally so. Hunting season is short enough as it is...the 9 months I spend thinking about it are bad enough. I also hunt the western half of the state.

 

[BuzzH]

Bigshooter,

You're right, your comments are once again crap.

If it werent for holding NR's hunters hostage via OSL's, you wouldnt have had clients to pay the freight for Block Management.

The negative impacts of OSL's are still being felt, and one of the reasons that NR licenses arent selling out. If the OSL's would have never been adopted from day one, there never would have been as many outfitters as there are now, resulting in less leasing of private.

The huge increase in outfitters via OSL's created the need for Block Management to start with, to off-set the huge increase in outfitters who leased up private lands.

If OSL's would have never been brought forward there would have been, and still would be, less outfitted hunters...which also means less private leasing by outfitters.

So, you can sell crazy to someone else...I saw what happened when OSL's "stabilized" the outfitting industry. Outfitter numbers sky-rocketed right along with sky-rocketing leasing by all the new outfitters OSL's created.

OSL's were about the worse thing to ever hit Montana.

 

[What Map]

Curious as to how you percieve the Farm Bill (which the next one will be much different than any before) and CRP helping with mule deer or hunting?

I probably should not have brought the farm bill and CRP into a mule deer thread. I don't know if CRP helps muleys, but I suspect it does, if habitat is the name of the game. I do know that CRP has helped ducks, pheasants and probably whitetails. I see it as a very successful conservation program by paying landowners to produce habitat instead of crops. I think reducing CRP support from the farm bill is a step backwards. It will take support from many stakeholder groups to impact the farm bill now, right? That's all I was saying.

 

[Straight Arrow]

What Map, it was brought out during the Mule Deer Symposium that CRP does produce habitat for mule deer (and other wildlife).

 

[Eric Albus]

Buzz...you should really check your facts before typing...The number of outfitters under the OSL went backward, and the number of acres leased went backward to...you can verify w/ the Board of Outfitters, Labor and Industry Dept. in Helena(not to be confused w/ MOGA).

I can see that "finding common ground" is a pipe dream.

If predators have no impact on wildlife, why are there no elk left in Yellowstone? Coincidence? I can tell you what I have seen and what every rancher in Eastern Montana knows....coyotes are negatively impacting the mule deer....

 

[Eric Albus]

[report: "Stomach contained deer hair and bone fragments," he noted. Eleven days later, he cut open another lion with different results: "He had nothing in his stomach."
"A recent study in "Wildlife Monographs," a scientific journal published by the Wildlife Society, reported that most years, coyotes don't prey on deer at all. They're busy eating mice and rabbits. And even when a coyote does kill a mule deer, it generally doesn't have an impact.
"
Eric,

More arguments against your logic.[/QUOTE]

JLS,
Really, when a coyote kills a mule deer it generally does not have an impact? Well, if that is the case we should all be able to hunt year round and not have an impact, does it matter if I shoot the deer, or if a coyote kills it?..most of these studies are funded by left wing fuitcakes...who want to see sport hunting end.

These educated folks can tell you this b.s., and you can choose to believe them. I could really care less....here is what I know, back when we had a good number of mule deer on the CMR there were 10-20 fresh coyote kills per day on the ice of Ft. Peck. The biologist who flew and was counting deer told me this. Oh, but "when a coyote kills a deer it has no impact"....

Do not think that I am throwing the entire blame on the den-step of the coyote...there are other factors involved....but a major factor in SE Mt's mule deer decline in the Powder River basin is coyote related.

As to the mountain lion part of the deal...I know little to nothing about cats...but I did talk w/ a couple guys who have been cat hunting over west...one tom they were tracking had killed in a day and half, one moose calf, one doe, and one fork horn...and only took a bite out of each animal...I suppose this has no impact on anything either/

 

[El Jason]

most of these studies are funded by left wing fuitcakes...who want to see sport hunting end.

[.

You lost me when you are telling me that ID F&G and NV DOW are anti hunting.

 

[Point Creep]

Eric, I agree predators kill game. But just so you know, there's elk in the YNP, lots of them, big ones even.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I can see that "finding common ground" is a pipe dream.

It is a mistake to equate a difference of opinion with no ability to find common ground.

 

[Dinkshooter]

It is a mistake to equate a difference of opinion with no ability to find common ground.

No room for common sense/ground when it comes to predator hysteria.

 

[Big Fin]

Buzz...you should really check your facts before typing...The number of outfitters under the OSL went backward, and the number of acres leased went backward to...you can verify w/ the Board of Outfitters, Labor and Industry Dept. in Helena(not to be confused w/ MOGA).

Eric - Your statement is not supported by Board of Outfitters information, when measured since the start of the OSL program. No information exists to make the claim you have made.

The original legislation required Board of Outfiitters to gather information related to leased lands upon the start of the OSL program. It never happened at the beginning, rather information started being gathered five years later, upon discovery that the Board of Outfitters failed to gather information from the start.

Five years went by before a base line was started. The baseline used to support the numbers you have mentioned. Five years AFTER the OSL were implemented.

The same five years when leasing boomed the most provides a baseline that completely ignores the huge boom in leasing that happened the first five years of the program. A proper baseline for measurement of impact of a program would be the data since the program started, not data that started being accumulated five years after implementation.

After "leased acres" were finally measured, "reported" leased acres did go down slightly, as you stated.

If predators have no impact on wildlife, why are there no elk left in Yellowstone? Coincidence? I can tell you what I have seen and what every rancher in Eastern Montana knows....coyotes are negatively impacting the mule deer....

No doubt that there are fewer elk in YNP. Wolves are a smaller part of it than are human deaths caused by very low elk population objectives requested by landowners and ag producers surrounding YNP.

Here is the "coincidence." Shooting 2,200 cow elk for years on end, coinciding with reintroduction of wolves, coinciding with the low objectives in the 2003 (?) Elk Management Plan is the "coincidence" of lower elk populations around YNP.

More "coincidence" would be issuing 450 cow tags for the YNP elk that migrated to the Madison Valley this winter, and the fact that elk numbers on the west side of YNP will be even lower next year than they were this year.

Last "coincidence" would the the landowner pressures on elk objectives of the MT Elk Management Plan that has set super low objectives for the areas outside YNP, whereby we are "at" or "above" objective in many units adjacent to YNP, in spite of many comments such as yours that there are "no elk in Yellowstone.." Highly liberal seasons that come from such low objectives does coincide with huge reductions in elk numbers in/around YNP, along with wolves.

The landowner demands for higher hunter harvest are further hammering YNP elk, once they migrate out of the park. We are killing elk in the Madison, right now; cow elk.

Seems strange to always hear that "the wolves ate all the elk," yet most landowners demand we kill even more cow elk. And after that happens, the blame always falls on wolves. Not a coincidence, rather an excuse of convenience.

 

[Big Shooter]

Buzzy......Are you stoned again?!? I don't think that anyone held anyone hostage and charged them outlandish prices except for the state and guess what.....the OSL doesn't exist anymore and we still have clients.....AND...they pay less for their tags.

I can't sell crazy to anyone.....cause apparently you bought all that was available and I hope they threw a jacket with no sleeves in too.....because you need it. I am surprised that you haven't blamed the skirmish in Iraq and Afghanistan on OSL's and outfitters!! Are outfitters responsible for higher taxes and the stricter gun laws that are brewing? How about unemployment nation wide......OSL's I bet huh? Wyoming has never had OSL's and they have plenty of outfitters.....actually I just got my packet to get a license down there myself and it is fairly easy. They are behind us now and we are still in business and will continue to be. This whole debate began when we thought that possibly the public would like to see and take better bucks every year as well as the outfitting industry would. It has been, actually, very interesting listening to people's take on it and I am not cussing anyone for their opinion.

Except for you and your arrogant attitude!! No one had bashed on outfitters and outfitters hadn't bashed on the DIY guys and it was a very informative thread. Buddy........get a grip. The OSL's are long gone and you need to let it go, I sense so much bitterness for someone that lives in Laramie. I was never bitter when I was in Laramie. I hate trespassers and/or people that end up where they shouldn't be, but you don't see me blaming everything on them.

 

[BuzzH]

As usual...you didnt name one single thing that outfitters have done to help wildlife, DIY hunters, etc. Probably a reason for that.

Congratulations?

 

[Big Shooter]

WTF? Yes....yes I did!! OSL's AND BLock Management...which is somewhat odd due to the fact that BM did nothing for wildlife except depleat them in a lot of the BM areas and surrounding properties. Not the DIY hunters fault though as the lack of control by the state allowed them to do it.

So yes, I did name something that outfitters did to help but you are being too narrow minded to see it. What the hell else should the outfitting industry have done? I bet I know this one too....outfitters should have FORCED landowners to open their land to the public. Is that the answer yo were looking for?

 

[BuzzH]

How much money came out of your pocket again to support Block Management?

Didnt we already establish that would be exactly ZERO?

Wow, you pass the bill for block management to your clients then take credit for all you've done do support block management???

I bet you're a real fun guy to have around when a bar/restaurant tab hits the table...pitch in nothing and expect a thank you from those that did pick up the tab.

Impressive, I must say.

 

[shoots-straight]

Eric - Your statement is not supported by Board of Outfitters information, when measured since the start of the OSL program. No information exists to make the claim you have made.

The original legislation required Board of Outfiitters to gather information related to leased lands upon the start of the OSL program. It never happened at the beginning, rather information started being gathered five years later, upon discovery that the Board of Outfitters failed to gather information from the start.

Five years went by before a base line was started. The baseline used to support the numbers you have mentioned. Five years AFTER the OSL were implemented.

The same five years when leasing boomed the most provides a baseline that completely ignores the huge boom in leasing that happened the first five years of the program. A proper baseline for measurement of impact of a program would be the data since the program started, not data that started being accumulated five years after implementation.

After "leased acres" were finally measured, "reported" leased acres did go down slightly, as you stated.



No doubt that there are fewer elk in YNP. Wolves are a smaller part of it than are human deaths caused by very low elk population objectives requested by landowners and ag producers surrounding YNP.

Here is the "coincidence." Shooting 2,200 cow elk for years on end, coinciding with reintroduction of wolves, coinciding with the low objectives in the 2003 (?) Elk Management Plan is the "coincidence" of lower elk populations around YNP.

More "coincidence" would be issuing 450 cow tags for the YNP elk that migrated to the Madison Valley this winter, and the fact that elk numbers on the west side of YNP will be even lower next year than they were this year.

Last "coincidence" would the the landowner pressures on elk objectives of the MT Elk Management Plan that has set super low objectives for the areas outside YNP, whereby we are "at" or "above" objective in many units adjacent to YNP, in spite of many comments such as yours that there are "no elk in Yellowstone.." Highly liberal seasons that come from such low objectives does coincide with huge reductions in elk numbers in/around YNP, along with wolves.

The landowner demands for higher hunter harvest are further hammering YNP elk, once they migrate out of the park. We are killing elk in the Madison, right now; cow elk.

Seems strange to always hear that "the wolves ate all the elk," yet most landowners demand we kill even more cow elk. And after that happens, the blame always falls on wolves. Not a coincidence, rather an excuse of convenience.

It's going, going, gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fin hits it right out of the park.

Eric, the man's got a memory like an Elephant. Your not the first one to be schooled by the Fin.

 

[shoots-straight]

WTF? Yes....yes I did!! OSL's AND BLock Management...which is somewhat odd due to the fact that BM did nothing for wildlife except depleat them in a lot of the BM areas and surrounding properties. Not the DIY hunters fault though as the lack of control by the state allowed them to do it.

So yes, I did name something that outfitters did to help but you are being too narrow minded to see it. What the hell else should the outfitting industry have done? I bet I know this one too....outfitters should have FORCED landowners to open their land to the public. Is that the answer yo were looking for?

Shooter, if you gave BM funding, say 10% of your gross income, then YOU would be doing something for BM and resident hunters. Your clients, along with the rest of the NR sportsman, are paying the money for that NOT YOU! OSL, money did pay, but it came from the pockets of the NR sportsman. Can we be any clearer?

Buzz is accurate and spot on.

 

[Big Shooter]

No.....no, Shoots, you can't be any clearer. You and Buzz have clearly stated that the outfitting industry owes you both something. Not real sure why, but for some reason you do. You were correct in saying that our clients, the ones that outfitters brought in that normally either would not have come to Montana or would have hunted on their own, but decided to pay out their nose for the high priced tags.....funded BM. I guess I was not aware of the fact that that was not enough. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it was more than you two kicked in to open private ground that was normally closed. Just a guess.

Since this whole debacle started out as a debate ( a fairly friendly one at that), about moving the season a couple weeks to try to improve trophy quality in our mule deer.....do you think that is our fault too that the quality is down? Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Ben Lamb]

No room for common sense/ground when it comes to predator hysteria.

Then again, if the idea is to only present the SFW model of "predator" management and private tags is where one side will only go, then I think we may well remain at impasse.

Mule deer declines throughout the west have been steeper in areas where we've ripped the habitat apart, like Utah and Wyoming.

MT's problems seem to stem from a variety of issues, and until people actually look at habitat as a limiting factor.p, including climate change, we're going to continue to see a long term decline. Biggest problem, as shoots mentioned, in some areas is severe over harvest. The Rocky Mountain Front is a prime example of that.

P.S. I want to be Fin when I grow up.

 

[Straight Arrow]

P.S. I want to be Fin when I grow up.

Me too ... and I have significantly increased my intake of DQ Blizzards, hoping to get smarter ... but the only result is brain-freeze and a too-short belt.