MT Mule Deer Symposium

[The Hedgehog]

Rod, Apples to Oranges. Where the big monsters are in Wyoming isn't typically just a few miles from the MT border. Different types of habitat. There's way more than just the rut hunting involved.

 

[belly-deep]

That opportunity would be available to the landowner if he or she so desired if the age class was a bit higher. Just like it is now though, those better deer would spill over from private to public and from public to private giving everyone a chance at better quality hunting......strictly MY opinion.

That already exists. Outfitters lease up big ranch and are able to control age classes. I believe that is a selling point for more than a few MT outfitters already.

 

[Big Shooter]

Greenhorn....I don't mean the high country areas in Wyoming, I was referring to the areas just south of our border. The quality is still noticeably better than ours directly across the border in areas where the seasons are done by the 15th or 30th of October. I have some friends that I rodeo with that ranch just south into Wyoming and they can kill some bruisers year in and year out.

Belly-deep...you are right, it does, I'm not arguing that, but I still feel that the quality would go up for everyone involved if we were all hunting them in October and into the first part of November. Too bad it's not "tradition" for families to get together the end of October, dress up like their favorite cartoon character or Super Hero, go out and kill a couple of 5 1/2 year old deer after they have hunted away from their Isuzu, then bust ass home to gobble down a carmeled apple and then take the kids Trick or Treating. People's photos would look ridiculous, but I bet the deer would be bigger.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I don't think shutting the season down in early November will help all that much, maybe some. I like what we've got now.

 

[JCS]

I love the long season. I love hunting during the rut.

If you own a ranch or lease a ranch for hunting and you feel the need to not hunt during the rut...DON"T

I'm sure in a few years you and your clients or friends will be killing B&C bucks.

 

[thecrittergitter]

Look at a few of the areas in MT where they have closed the areas down before the main rut kicks in. They are noticeably showing better bucks. I know guys that have land in those areas and they are saying without a doubt some much bigger bucks are around than when you could hunt the rut. Many times you don't see them until the rut, but hence the reason they are getting to that next age class.

So, there is do doubt hunting them in the rut has some effect on the age class, but to what degree, I suppose it would be hard to pinpoint just how much.

Montana will probably always be behind the main Mule Deer states but we know there has to be some potential.

There were some huge deer taken this year in areas that close down before the rut so I have to think there must be something behind that.

Its a hard line for me because I really like hunting deer in the rut. However, if I knew it would get the quality up in many areas, I'd be for supporting it.

One thing that might be an option to still have the best of both worlds is to close some of the areas down like they have Nov 1st and then allow archery only the rest of the season....?? Definately fewer big bucks would get killed but at least you still have an opportunty to try for them.

The problem as stated before, most people want the big bucks to hunt, but 90% of the hunters don't want to give up opportunity to shoot a dinker from the truck window to make that happen.......

 

[Ben Lamb]

Look at a few of the areas in MT where they have closed the areas down before the main rut kicks in. They are noticeably showing better bucks. I know guys that have land in those areas and they are saying without a doubt some much bigger bucks are around than when you could hunt the rut. Many times you don't see them until the rut, but hence the reason they are getting to that next age class.

So, there is do doubt hunting them in the rut has some effect on the age class, but to what degree, I suppose it would be hard to pinpoint just how much.

Montana will probably always be behind the main Mule Deer states but we know there has to be some potential.

There were some huge deer taken this year in areas that close down before the rut so I have to think there must be something behind that.

Its a hard line for me because I really like hunting deer in the rut. However, if I knew it would get the quality up in many areas, I'd be for supporting it.

One thing that might be an option to still have the best of both worlds is to close some of the areas down like they have Nov 1st and then allow archery only the rest of the season....?? Definately fewer big bucks would get killed but at least you still have an opportunty to try for them.

The problem as stated before, most people want the big bucks to hunt, but 90% of the hunters don't want to give up opportunity to shoot a dinker from the truck window to make that happen.......

+1 Matt.

I did notice several 160-180 class whitetail on properties that allow no hunting this year. Funny how that works.

 

[thecrittergitter]

+1 Matt.

I did notice several 160-180 class whitetail on properties that allow no hunting this year. Funny how that works.

I also saw 2 mule deer bucks killed in a unit this year that closed down early that were both well over 190"...........both were killed by youth hunters

 

[RUT JUNKEY]

I'm clueless on this, but, do have a few questions? How many bucks can you kill per year? How many does? I know its not the same, but, here we have only been able to shoot one buck per year for the past several years and it has allowed some of the bucks to just get huge. . .its not uncommon for me to see multiple "book" deer every year now. I don't shoot any does unless its in the early bow season in my "honey hole" spots because I believe you are taking the chance of killing yourself out of possibly 3 deer with good genetics if you kill a doe after the rut, obviously most of the time the dominate buck will be breeding a lot of the does in his area. It's just how I do it . . .right or wrong. I do agree that habitat is a huge factor also. I also agree with the coyotes being a huge factor in the fawn mortality rates. ( here it is) Just my 2cents. I do hope they get it worked out though.

 

[EasternMTHunter]

The area I've hunted for may years now closes the mule deer season dwon during the rut and has not allowed any mule deer does to be shot in many years. We have noticed that the population is increasing and now we are seeing some very nice bucks compared to where I live and hunt more during deer season. I would agree with many others that they need to stop or severely limit the harvest of does but I do like the 5 week season.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I also saw 2 mule deer bucks killed in a unit this year that closed down early that were both well over 190"...........both were killed by youth hunters

Yep. Passed on several shooters in an area that closes early as well.

I don't think it's any secret that controlled access to critters creates larger antlers. The real question is: how do maintain opportunity while improving quality.

One model says eliminate opportunity and sell wildlife, the other says just shoot 'em during the rut and don't worry about the B&C score.

There's a middle path.

 

[shoots-straight]

We (Ravalli County Fish & Wildlife Ass.) had this debate on mule deer in the 90's. Lynn Nelson was our Bio back then, and he wanted to move our deer season opener to Oct. 1st for 5 weeks and keep it out of the rut. There was obvious resistance to that because I and others in the club bowhunted, and a rifle season was unacceptable then. The mule deer herds were under what anyone would consider healthy ratio's of bucks to does in all of Ravalli County.

After hashing, and rehashing the issue we decided on 2 different types of management. The seasons would be kept within the existing structures.

In 2 districts, (the ones with what we felt had the best genetics, and habitat) 261 and 270, we pushed for limited entry, and season would run all 5 weeks. In the ramaining areas (204, 240, and 250) we went to unlimited tags, but the season closed on Nov. 12Th.

The first season started, in 1997 (I think). My daughter drew the first year for the 270 tag. There were just a few forkies back then. She never filled.

After the ups and downs, we have had to push for further restrictions in the other districts too. 250 and 240 was getting all the 2ND, or 3rd choice apps that didn't draw the limited entry tags. 204 is a lot of private so it stayed constant.

The mashem stackem Bio after Nelson would never do a flight survey of 250 (even if we paid for it). Things went down hill in all that district's under his watch until Craig Jourdonnais became our bio.

3 years ago I flew with Craig one day in 250. This was a post season count, and we counted 3 bucks. That's not 3 per 100 does. That's just 3 bucks! 2 forkies and a 3 point.

We fought hard to change how the areas in the remaining districts were managed. We settled on two different structures. 250 would be limited entry, but not so much as to make it a trophy area like 270 and 261. Just to get the bucks back. The number that Craig came up with around was 85 tags, down from close to 1000. HD 240 went to unlimited but if you drew, you could only hunt that area for mule deer bucks and season closed Nov. 11Th.

I don't have this years survey results. After the first year in HD 250, with all those predators in there, the buck to doe ratio went to 17/100. We only counted 3 the year before, total. Of course they were mostly young forkies.

It shows the #1 predator was us. We can get the healthy numbers of deer, and even go a bit farther if the public is willing. Who needs to eat a mule deer every year? I shoot a whitetailed doe or buck each year and that fills the freezer better anyway.

 

[shoots-straight]

BTW, HD 261, and HD 270 mule deer tags are now some of the most coveted in the Western US. The Governor's tag is usually filled in one or the other each year.

 

[Big Shooter]

I have a question for you Shoots, or anyone for that matter I guess, and I am honestly not even trying to be a wise ass. You made a comment in one of your posts about interfering with archery season if the rifle season was moved up and opening in early October, and I would agree that it would be unfair to the archers. Is there any reason why the archery season, for deer, can't open earlier....say around the middle of August like the archery only antelope season does? I don't mean to sound like a broken record.....but doesn't Wyoming open their archery seasons in August for deer? That would still allow everyone to have the same length of seasons, but just avoiding the rut.

 

[belly-deep]

BTW, HD 261, and HD 270 mule deer tags are now some of the most coveted in the Western US. The Governor's tag is usually filled in one or the other each year.

270 and 261 have been a huge success. Same results as in Utah though...very few hunters will ever get to spend time hunting the unit.

What good is a resource if you never get to enjoy it?

Has moving the closing date on 250 and 240 helped the unit produce bigger deer? I'd be more in favor of a slightly shortened season instead of LE tags everywhere.

 

[shoots-straight]

I have a question for you Shoots, or anyone for that matter I guess, and I am honestly not even trying to be a wise ass. You made a comment in one of your posts about interfering with archery season if the rifle season was moved up and opening in early October, and I would agree that it would be unfair to the archers. Is there any reason why the archery season, for deer, can't open earlier....say around the middle of August like the archery only antelope season does? I don't mean to sound like a broken record.....but doesn't Wyoming open their archery seasons in August for deer? That would still allow everyone to have the same length of seasons, but just avoiding the rut.

Through all the information we found that just moving the season up didn't have the effect we were looking for. People still feel they need to shoot any deer so they would. In country were the bucks move to higher ground, you would save some survival of older bucks. In the prairie lands you just kill the animals earlier.

It would have traded a great archery season for a not so great rifle season. Bull elk are really rutting through the middle of Oct. Whitetailed deer are in transition and pre rut. That time of year is great to be out with archery tackle. August it's hot and dry. Most big game activity is limited to very early, and very late. Not great for hunting all but water holes.

People in Montana want to hunt through the Thanksgiving holiday. You would be staggering the rifle to last 3 more weeks. That translates into 3 more weeks of landowner tolerance, and 3 more weeks of law enforcement in the field.

Not efficient!

 

[belly-deep]

The problem as stated before, most people want the big bucks to hunt, but 90% of the hunters don't want to give up opportunity to shoot a dinker from the truck window to make that happen.......

I don't think that is the problem.

I think people like having a 5 week season during the rut.

 

[shoots-straight]

270 and 261 have been a huge success. Same results as in Utah though...very few hunters will ever get to spend time hunting the unit.

What good is a resource if you never get to enjoy it?

Has moving the closing date on 250 and 240 helped the unit produce bigger deer? I'd be more in favor of a slightly shortened season instead of LE tags everywhere.

There are huge down sides with the limited entry areas. We have a huge law enforcement issue there. Poaching is now a big problem. We have random deer shootings where people just drive around and shoot every deer they can. (Thrill Kill) is the term I hear a lot.

The native brothers from up north have figured out what we created. They now can come here and whack an unlimited bunch of big bucks and sell them.

If it wasn't for the poaching and the native kill there would certainly be a larger opportunity for sportsman.

In the beginning there was a few more larger old class bucks taken in those districts because of the move. Once people figured out to apply their 2ND and 3rd choice, that all went away. Last general unlimited tag season in HD 250 around 1000 tags were sold. As I stated before, I flew after that season, and counted just 3 deer that were bucks. That was out of herd of 500 deer.

 

[The Hedgehog]

How about create a special permit, unlimted for those who want to hunt that last week in any general unit. 1st and only choice, but if you hold it, you can't hunt the first 4 weeks.

 

[Eric Albus]

I can see by the rhetoric espoused here that coming to a consensus on mule deer managment will be difficult at best.

To whomever it was telling me that I do not know about what I am talking about w/ the coyotes being the #1 contributor to the decline in mule deer populations in Eastern Montana...ask anyone else who has a half a clue and lives in Reg. 6-7 about where our deer/antelope are going. Every rancher will tell you, coyote numbers are extremely high in areas, and fawn recruitment is appalling low....rocket science? maybe for some.

Rather than go to restrictive hunting seasons and limited permits, why not try what other states are doing? Here is my idea(and it will work, for a while)....Archery season Sept. 1 thru Sept 30....Rifle season Oct. 5 thru 25(i could concede thru 29)...then muzzle load season(no in-lines, no scopes) from Nov. 1-10, then Nov. 12 Bow season thru Dec. 15...... License for each season...MORE revenue for the Dept....less impact on the resource... WIN-WIN...

Now in response to those who are either working for the Dept., or are so enamoured w/ the Dept.'s rhetoric that they can not see the forest for the trees....Montana can produce B&C quality bucks, if they were to try, but I am not sure that we need to attempt to manage for that kind of quality...way to restrictive....find a middle ground....win-win-win...for the resrouce first, the dept. 2nd and the sportsmen 3rd.