Montana mule deer rant

[Art Vandeley]

Must have been a CWD deer

 

[FREAK]

I saw this today on FB, and couldn’t help but wonder if Colorado is next…I’m not trying to bash on these guys. Looks like a fun trip but, pushing 3rd season into prime rut dates seems like a recipe for disaster. I hunted Colorado two years ago and was impressed at the number and quality of deer in a unit that took 0-1 points to draw but also couldn't believe the number of hunters/atv’s, camps, etc. as soon as I heard of the date change I thought man, those deer won’t stand a chance.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

I saw this today on FB, and couldn’t help but wonder if Colorado is next…I’m not trying to bash on these guys. Looks like a fun trip but, pushing 3rd season into prime rut dates seems like a recipe for disaster. I hunted Colorado two years ago and was impressed at the number and quality of deer in a unit that took 0-1 points to draw but also couldn't believe the number of hunters/atv’s, camps, etc. as soon as I heard of the date change I thought man, those deer won’t stand a chance.

At least CO limits tags and puts you into a specific unit, vs the MT free4all.

 

[DFS]

I saw this today on FB, and couldn’t help but wonder if Colorado is next…I’m not trying to bash on these guys. Looks like a fun trip but, pushing 3rd season into prime rut dates seems like a recipe for disaster. I hunted Colorado two years ago and was impressed at the number and quality of deer in a unit that took 0-1 points to draw but also couldn't believe the number of hunters/atv’s, camps, etc. as soon as I heard of the date change I thought man, those deer won’t stand a chance.

Colorado is walking a fine line,they are one big snow storm from ending their better bucks. Late season dates and high powered rifles do not go together. A week season vs 5 weeks of the entire rut isn’t comparable though. Montana does not let up no matter what deer numbers are or what Mother Nature is doing. I think what has been lost in many of these threads is trophy quality vs. deer numbers. Trophy quality in Montana was mainly gone many years ago, now the deer are gone too. Mule deer are going the way of the dodo birds on public at least.

 

[rogerthat]

I saw this today on FB, and couldn’t help but wonder if Colorado is next…I’m not trying to bash on these guys. Looks like a fun trip but, pushing 3rd season into prime rut dates seems like a recipe for disaster. I hunted Colorado two years ago and was impressed at the number and quality of deer in a unit that took 0-1 points to draw but also couldn't believe the number of hunters/atv’s, camps, etc. as soon as I heard of the date change I thought man, those deer won’t stand a chance.

Yep, you nailed it. They effectively have fixed their mature buck problem ie (they killed them off). However I will start a new thread so as not to detract from the especially crappy situation Montana mule deer are in.

 

[MTTW]

Took my rifle for a 4.53 mile walk through what use to be solid mule deer country. 4 does and two small bucks.

I took a similar distance walk Saturday in search of a deer. 1 and a half hours in the dark, minus 8 when I left the truck, calm and a foot of snow. The same country that I killed my first good mule deer in years ago. Same place my dad killed a 35-inch buck in in the 1960s. Would have likely seen 20 deer a few years ago. Roadless area.

I saw 1 old medium wandering buck track, 1 fresh lion track, and 4 bulls. Zero human tracks off the main trail in the bottom. This drainage has a fraction of the hunting pressure that it had when I was a kid. Like 10%. I know so many places like this that it is scarry.

The only hope that I see is that as I age my memory is getting worse. Someday I will no longer remember what it could be like. I hold no hope for FWP to remedy anything. Anywhere.

Was I satisfied with my hunt? Well, I am doing it again in another place this morning so I guess FWP can stick another feather in their cap for being a smashing success.

 

[MNElkNut]

I wonder if part of the problem is that you have these isolated pockets (mostly if not all private land) that still have good numbers. Then you have the various social media pages where more people than in the past percentage-wise are posting pictures of bucks. People (and FWP) see this and think, gee whiz, I just saw at least dozen monster bucks on Facebook, therefore the whole state must have good bucks. Ol' Rancher Bob has lots of deer on his property, so numbers must be good too.

That is a big disconnect from people who have hunted public land for decades and have seen changes firsthand in those areas across time. People see what they want to see.

 

[bigsky2]

I wonder if part of the problem is that you have these isolated pockets (mostly if not all private land) that still have good numbers. Then you have the various social media pages where more people than in the past percentage-wise are posting pictures of bucks. People (and FWP) see this and think, gee whiz, I just saw at least dozen monster bucks on Facebook, therefore the whole state must have good bucks. Ol' Rancher Bob has lots of deer on his property, so numbers must be good too.

That is a big disconnect from people who have hunted public land for decades and have seen changes firsthand in those areas across time. People see what they want to see.

I'd agree with this. Social media is basically the highlight reel and would lead one to believe the hunting is better than it actually is.

 

[FREAK]

I took a similar distance walk Saturday in search of a deer. 1 and a half hours in the dark, minus 8 when I left the truck, calm and a foot of snow. The same country that I killed my first good mule deer in years ago. Same place my dad killed a 35-inch buck in in the 1960s. Would have likely seen 20 deer a few years ago. Roadless area.

I saw 1 old medium wandering buck track, 1 fresh lion track, and 4 bulls. Zero human tracks off the main trail in the bottom. This drainage has a fraction of the hunting pressure that it had when I was a kid. Like 10%. I know so many places like this that it is scarry.

The only hope that I see is that as I age my memory is getting worse. Someday I will no longer remember what it could be like. I hold no hope for FWP to remedy anything. Anywhere.

Was I satisfied with my hunt? Well, I am doing it again in another place this morning so I guess FWP can stick another feather in their cap for being a smashing success.

Good luck, hope you turn a nice one up.

 

[BuzzH]

Talked to a Warden this weekend, they have some big plans for deer in NW Montana that I'm not cracked up about.

Its like talking to a 10 year old when you try to explain how bad decisions can ruin deer hunting right quick. I just don't understand the mentality that the MTFWP has, where it came from, and how it continues from one generation of biologist to another?

Seems they don't understand that does actually produce buck fawns...

 

[huntin24/7]

Another thing I think you’ll see too(and I’m not trying to minimize the severity of cwd or downplay what it is. It’s a serious issue), but I think FWP will use it as a scapegoat to a degree to avoid any changes to season structure/length and overall mule deer management in the state.

 

[Tiredofthebickering]

Talked to a Warden this weekend, they have some big plans for deer in NW Montana that I'm not cracked up about.

Its like talking to a 10 year old when you try to explain how bad decisions can ruin deer hunting right quick. I just don't understand the mentality that the MTFWP has, where it came from, and how it continues from one generation of biologist to another?

Seems they don't understand that does actually produce buck fawns...

If memory serves right, they produce fawns at a roughly 1:1 buck:doe ratio too. Can you imagine if they limited doe harvest for even just a few years? People would probably feel like they were seeing bucks everywhere. I don't know how you'd protect all those young bucks, but you'd have to imagine that some would make it through.

 

[Bambistew]

I wonder if part of the problem is that you have these isolated pockets (mostly if not all private land) that still have good numbers. Then you have the various social media pages where more people than in the past percentage-wise are posting pictures of bucks. People (and FWP) see this and think, gee whiz, I just saw at least dozen monster bucks on Facebook, therefore the whole state must have good bucks. Ol' Rancher Bob has lots of deer on his property, so numbers must be good too.

That is a big disconnect from people who have hunted public land for decades and have seen changes firsthand in those areas across time. People see what they want to see.

Look at the average size and age of bucks taken from CO WY UT and NV that are posted on SM pages. Compare to all the big bucks and youll see from MT. The big MT bucks are average deer for CO and WY. You see what you want to see. The whitetail bucks from MT are danm near as big as the mule deer.

 

[schmalts]

Walked past a coworker who had Google maps up and the custer nation forest was on it. I asked what's up and he said his buddies go there and he's going to join next year. I told him the place is shot out. He disagreed and showed me a picture the biggest one they got this year. I laughed and said that's the whole problem. It was a 4x that maybe went 130 inches. I can only imagine what the small ones looked like. To each is own but it's a shame what happened to that area

 

[brockel]

Walked past a coworker who had Google maps up and the custer nation forest was on it. I asked what's up and he said his buddies go there and he's going to join next year. I told him the place is shot out. He disagreed and showed me a picture the biggest one they got this year. I laughed and said that's the whole problem. It was a 4x that maybe went 130 inches. I can only imagine what the small ones looked like. To each is own but it's a shame what happened to that area

Have a couple friends that do some guiding on private land. It isn’t just the Custer that’s shot out

 

[The Hedgehog]

I saw my first western MT mule deer buck last week, with a doe. It looked like it could have been a 4x, but if so, it's forks were almost undetectable to the human eye. maybe 16" outside, no mass. The doe was his.

I did see a 180+ not far off the bitterroot river, while looking at some of the limited quota deer area 2 weeks back.

 

[Eric Albus]

Talked to a Warden this weekend, they have some big plans for deer in NW Montana that I'm not cracked up about.

Its like talking to a 10 year old when you try to explain how bad decisions can ruin deer hunting right quick. I just don't understand the mentality that the MTFWP has, where it came from, and how it continues from one generation of biologist to another?

Seems they don't understand that does actually produce buck fawns...

It baffles me as well.

Back in the late 60’s early 70’s is where the current mindset came from.

Opportunity first, and “wildlife can’t be stockpiled”, so smoke ‘em while you got ‘em.

There is a happy medium, somewhere between what I’m managing for and the dept’s “kill them all” tact.

This is where/what we need to attempt to manage for, region by region, area by area.

 

[rogerthat]

Look at the average size and age of bucks taken from CO WY UT and NV that are posted on SM pages. Compare to all the big bucks and youll see from MT. The big MT bucks are average deer for CO and WY. You see what you want to see. The whitetail bucks from MT are danm near as big as the mule deer.

Colorado is a has been as well for big bucks. It’s a delicate balance. Unfortunately Colorado took it a step too far with its last 5 year season structure

Edit: big bucks are one thing. Montana has a population crash they are not aware of(or don’t care). Very sad

 

[Big Fin]

Edit: big bucks are one thing. Montana has a population crash they are not aware of(or don’t care). Very sad

This is my worry. Maybe they have data to show the population is not crashing and I'm not aware of that data. I could care less about buck scores or sizes. I am interested in a diverse age class and a robust number of deer, post-hunt, on accessible lands. Having asked for that management outcome for many years, experience tells me you are quickly labeled by most resident hunters as "A trophy hunter" when advocating for such.

 

[ShootsManyBullets]

I'll wear the Trophy Hunter badge with honor. Didn't the B&C guys mention that having B&C entries in any given area are a sign of a healthy herd? Or something thereabouts.

As far as their data it's the old GIGO story of Garbage In Garbage Out