Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Ought Six]

I don’t think the wildlife managers or biologists are hunting much. Certainly not on public land where I frequent. They have told me I need to gain access to private if I would like better hunting.

Good point. Did you tell them you got private to access and it’s bad there too?

 

[DougStickney]

Good point. Did you tell them you got private to access and it’s bad there too?

Yes.

 

[Ought Six]

Yes.

I think the wildlife managers and biologists have a bad case of Ligma

 

[JT88]

I got the call a few days ago.

Her: Did you hunt deer? And how many days?
Me: Yes, around 10 days
Her: Did you kill a deer?
Me: No, I didn't see any mature bucks
Her: Did you turkey hunt? How many days?
Me: I bought a tag but only made it out once, didn't harvest a turkey
Her: What unit?
Me: (I told her)
Her: Ok, Thanks for the information
Me: I did kill a bull elk
Her: We aren't taking any elk harvest information unit after March 1st
Me:
Also me: Ever heard the phrase "Kill two birds with one stone?"

 

[SAJ-99]

I got the call a few days ago.

Her: Did you hunt deer? And how many days?
Me: Yes, around 10 days
Her: Did you kill a deer?
Me: No, I didn't see any mature bucks
Her: Did you turkey hunt? How many days?
Me: I bought a tag but only made it out once, didn't harvest a turkey
Her: What unit?
Me: (I told her)
Her: Ok, Thanks for the information
Me: I did kill a bull elk
Her: We aren't taking any elk harvest information unit after March 1st
Me:
Also me: Ever heard the phrase "Kill two birds with one stone?"

LOL. And someone said FWP argued that an online system was too expensive. I have to assume that they are employing Hank's relatives to make these calls.

 

[Mtn-time]

Here is a link to a previously published article in response to some of the comments and questions. https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/montana-outdoors/2009/phonesurvey.pdf
Maybe it will provide some insight and additional thoughts on the subject.

 

[Bambistew]

Here is a link to a previously published article in response to some of the comments and questions. https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/montana-outdoors/2009/phonesurvey.pdf
Maybe it will provide some insight and additional thoughts on the subject.

Interesting article. Lots of head scratchers there.

Each winter, from early December through mid-April, roughly 50 temporary, part-time phone surveyors call approximately 250,000 hunters and eventually reach and interview 100,000, about 60 percent of the hunters who purchase licenses

What? That's only 40%... did they mean 60% didn't answer the phone?

For instance, we know from other survey work that nonresident hunters spend an average of $175 a day on mule deer hunting,” Brooks says. “If we learn from the winter phone surveys that hunting districts around Broadus are seeing about 2,200 nonresident hunter days each season, we could say the economic value of mule deer hunting to that area is around $385,000 annually.”

They are obviously not economists...

The idea behind “mandatory reporting” is that it’s cheaper and gathers data from more hunters. But it doesn’t quite work that way, says Gude, because many hunters don’t comply.

After evaluating other states’ hunter harvest survey methods, he found that compliance ranged from 85 percent in Washington to only 10 percent in Oregon.

So by their own admission they only get 40% (the one guy interviewed reported 3650 respondents out of 10,000 calls or 36% response) compliance with phone calling, but claim its better than 85% compliance? Who's to say the guys responding to the calls are any more/less truthful than a guy reporting online? OR, the guys that dodge the phone or specifically answer it and gush over their experience when the caller ID says "MT FWP"? I really feel like they are just trying to justify this program. Why not have a one time mandatory reporting survey and compare to the phone call system?

Alaska has mandatory reporting, you can't apply for permits if you don't report. If you fail to report on a registration tag, you are issued a citation and can't apply for hunts for a year. Plenty of ways to get people to comply. No survey, no tags... I'd guess they're in the 85% compliance range. I think a lot of NR fail to report, no consequence, but they can compare sales to reports and sort it out easy enough.

As a result, Idaho Game and Fish must call 40,000 of the hunters who don’t report and conduct phone interviews. “They told us they spend $200,000 each year on their mandatory system before they even do the follow-up survey,” says Gude. “That’s 60 percent more than we spend, and they sell about half the number of licenses and permits we do.”

You're telling me they employ 50 people part time for 4 months, and only spend $80,000 to to make 250,000 calls? I estimate costs for a living... there is zero chance they are funding this program on $80k with 50 employees for 4 months, part-time or not. It costs money to have the heat and lights on, not to mention the computers, phones, etc. $400/mo per employee?

Its the government, they can't operate that cheaply, what they spend isn't equal to what it cost. The government is 3x less efficient with management and contracting than private contractors. Put it this way, the guys in charge of this part-time dog and pony show cost money, there is probably one guy in charge and at least 2 FT employees working on this program to manage those operators. Those FT employees cost probably in the neighborhood of at least $100k a year each with benefits, taxes, etc (that's assuming $60k a year job). That's ~$100k just to pay the FT employees assigned to the project for the 4 month duration. That doesn't count the crunching and data sorting/vetting from inaccurate entries, etc. nor pay for those part time employees.

Everything about that article sums up what I expected from FWP. I have even less confidence in their ability now.

 

[DougStickney]

If we never change management regardless of where people are hunting, what the populations of animals are, what the bull to cow ratio or buck to doe ratio is there could be a lot of jobs eliminated and things would just continue it’s downhill decline on its own. Adaptive management at work. The most restrictive management we could possibly go to would be everyone gets to shoot a buck and everyone could potentially hunt in the same district any given year. A complete free for all is a surefire way to privatize wildlife, maybe that’s what we are going for.

 

[RobertD]

How in the world did they get those numbers for how much people spend in a day of mule deer hunting. Counting hotels? I could see it if you stay in a hotel and eat out every meal. But I doubt enough hunters do that to make it the average. Seems high.

 

[FI460]

The idea behind “mandatory reporting” is that it’s cheaper and gathers data from more hunters. But it doesn’t quite work that way, says Gude, because many hunters don’t comply.

After evaluating other states’ hunter harvest survey methods, he found that compliance ranged from 85 percent in Washington to only 10 percent in Oregon.

I don't believe a single number in that article:
"ODFW used to get this data through phone surveys but these became more difficult and expensive as hunters moved or screened their calls. While reporting has been mandatory since 2007, reporting rates dramatically improved (from about 40 percent to 80 percent or more) when a penalty for not reporting was added in 2012."

Report hunt results by Jan. 31 – Avoid the $25 penalty for not reporting on deer and elk tags

 

[pigsticker]

As a non-resident I have been hunting Montana (mostly eastern) all of my life and this year undoubtedly was the worst I have ever seen for, not just quality, but numbers as well (it seems to be progressively getting worse over the past decade). On public access land, in some places, I saw more hunters than deer. I bought my son a youth license in hopes we could find him a nice mature mule deer for his first muley buck...you could forget that notion. Definitely had a couple opportunities to fill the license with a forky, but they weren't bouncing around everywhere either. Something needs to be done, eastern MT is getting hammered and it is glaringly obvious. And the elk hunting in the breaks isn't anywhere what it used to be either. I don't understand what is going on with Montana's management, but it definitely isn't headed in the right direction for sportsmen's interests in my opinion.

 

[antlerradar]

As a non-resident I have been hunting Montana (mostly eastern) all of my life and this year undoubtedly was the worst I have ever seen for, not just quality, but numbers as well (it seems to be progressively getting worse over the past decade). On public access land, in some places, I saw more hunters than deer. I bought my son a youth license in hopes we could find him a nice mature mule deer for his first muley buck...you could forget that notion. Definitely had a couple opportunities to fill the license with a forky, but they weren't bouncing around everywhere either. Something needs to be done, eastern MT is getting hammered and it is glaringly obvious. And the elk hunting in the breaks isn't anywhere what it used to be either. I don't understand what is going on with Montana's management, but it definitely isn't headed in the right direction for sportsmen's interests in my opinion.

Maybe just maybe we are getting close enough to rock bottom that hunters will demand a change. Is that a small glimmer of light in the dankness or is it a train coming down the track to flatten us out once again.

 

[brockel]

Maybe just maybe we are getting close enough to rock bottom that hunters will demand a change. Is that a small glimmer of light in the dankness or is it a train coming down the track to flatten us out once again.

Definitely more talk around here of lack of deer and quality around Baker. But mention restricting license sales and shortening seasons and you better duck. Lots want change but don’t want to give up anything for it. The blame always falls on non residents even if it’s residents who are just as guilty

 

[Ought Six]

I’m seeing more talk about how bad things are too, but yeah no one wants to give up opportunity. Shouldn’t matter what people don’t want to give up though, should be managed for the good of the resource, not the “tradition” or “opportunity” or revenue. Plenty of ways to make more money too. Sure hunters will be angry for a little while, but the sting of higher priced tags or mule deer buck tag drawings and drawing fees or no shooting does on public land will wear off quicker than we think and people will be accustomed to it for the next year. Wishful thinking I guess.

 

[brownbear932008]

Definitely more talk around here of lack of deer and quality around Baker. But mention restricting license sales and shortening seasons and you better duck. Lots want change but don’t want to give up anything for it. The blame always falls on non residents even if it’s residents who are just as guilty

Bingo, it's that the whole system is a train wreck in totality. It's only going to continue to get worse.

 

[8andcounting]

Definitely more talk around here of lack of deer and quality around Baker. But mention restricting license sales and shortening seasons and you better duck. Lots want change but don’t want to give up anything for it. The blame always falls on non residents even if it’s residents who are just as guilty

Yup - I mean I’m sorry but the change has to start with residents looking in the mirror lots talk about how bad it is but like you said Brockel, when it comes down to change that might affect their opportunities then it’s just oh: the darn NR’s

Also I’ll as that I do think some changes should be made for NR too specifically b tag sales , but they shouldn’t just be re sold to a R either . B tags need to be cut

 

[8andcounting]

Not to derail this thread but I will be very curious to see what the NR draw odds will be this year for the general tag . With inflation and the cost of everything including fuel , plus add in that maybe some people are realizing the hunting is crap on public mostly might make some folks jump off the bandwagon . Who knows I guess . I’m thinking apps will be down slightly

 

[bigsky2]

Not to derail this thread but I will be very curious to see what the NR draw odds will be this year for the general tag . With inflation and the cost of everything including fuel , plus add in that maybe some people are realizing the hunting is crap on public mostly might make some folks jump off the bandwagon . Who knows I guess . I’m thinking apps will be down slightly

It seems like there will always be someone waiting in line to shoot a two to three year old mule deer during the rut, no matter how bad the hunting gets.

 

[Carnage2011]

Talked to a friend yesterday that called me to ask about nonresident hunting pressure. Said he had seen a crazy decline over the last couple years and their family struggled to fill all their doe tags last year. He said 4 years ago they shot 17 does and two bucks. I gave him the resident/non resident tag breakdown and then explained that residents are a huge part of the problem. He disagreed and said he seen 50+ vehicles with Washington plates last year and they were killing everything that moved. His theory is that residents should only take a tag cut once we’ve reeled in the nonresident tags. In his opinion, the legislature keeps making loopholes for non residents to get more tags while residents are having to self regulate to make up for it. I don’t see many residents self regulating.

 

[Carnage2011]

Not to derail this thread but I will be very curious to see what the NR draw odds will be this year for the general tag . With inflation and the cost of everything including fuel , plus add in that maybe some people are realizing the hunting is crap on public mostly might make some folks jump off the bandwagon . Who knows I guess . I’m thinking apps will be down slightly

Inflation will have no impact. We will still sell out easily and draw odds will continue to get worse. There is a lot of money in the hunting world and the majority of hunters just want to go hunting and shoot something. Lack of quality doesn’t seem to deter many people.