Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[rogerthat]

We've upped the take to the point that the quota's are filling.

HD 240 female quota 9 harvest 6 male quota 9 male harvest 5
HD 250 female quota 9 harvest 8 male quota 13 harvest 2
HD 270 female quota 11 harvest 8 male quota 9 harvest 9

only 270 male quota was reached. This is with the new and improved let anyone with a tag take a lion. If you include 204 there was 45 cats taken by legal means. I don't believe 45 is sustainable. 30 to 35 is a close number. This was what we determined when I worked on the supposed Montana Lion Management plan that was tossed in the round file.

History will repeat itself again and the houndsmen will be screaming about not being able to find a cat track every day.

I feel predators have local impacts in places but not the smoking gun here. Some places have suppressed take on cats and they have higher densities.

Cats kill deer no doubt. Lots of other things do too. I'd like to see some more evidence on what's really taking place now.

I think to really understand we have to get more gps collars out there with mortality studies. I bet there could be a lot of variability across the state in regards to what is impacting mule deer populations.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I know cats are being killed. I still see them every year while hunting. Multiples some times. I know it is specific to our area but I question just how involved our biologist is. An LE unit was proposed to go general a few years ago. It stayed LE and this year the quota was reduced. I don't know what is taking place now with the mule deer decline. Wish I did. mtmuley

This is all happening in a LE unit. Imagine how mule deer in those areas would be doing if they were still OTC with five weeks of general hunting.


You guys are pointing out legitimate issues that are affecting mule deer as well as hunting pressure. We acknowledge that in our proposals but as a group chose to focus our attention and effort on the portion of the problem we think we can best address.

Habitat restoration, disease mitigation, and predator management are several factors that come to mind that need to be incorporated into Montana mule deer
management. Those are big lifts and are going to need a lot more expertise and resources than nine guys meeting on their own time can figure out.

In my opinion this is where the larger conservation organizations, FWP using Habitat MT dollars and other assets are going to be where we look for driving those changes.

 

[mtmuley]

This is all happening in a LE unit. Imagine how mule deer in those areas would be doing if they were still OTC with five weeks of general hunting.

Oh I get it. Luckily the general OTC was shutdown. Guess they listened to us for once. Even though the mule deer issue is statewide, I think it will still take a region by region approach to how to best get back on track. mtmuley

 

[Stifler]

Another thing I might add. It might create a unintentional FOMO effect. With no overlap in mule deer and elk. It makes it pretty easy for a guy to hunt deer on vacation for a week or 2 out east.. and the same guy have another week or 2 for backdoor elk. I usually have around 120 hrs every hunting season. And I don't even have one of the bomb ass jobs some of you guys have...

 

[bigsky2]

Another thing I might add. It might create a unintentional FOMO effect. With no overlap in mule deer and elk. It makes it pretty easy for a guy to hunt deer on vacation for a week or 2 out east.. and the same guy have another week or 2 for backdoor elk. I usually have around 120 hrs every hunting season. And I don't even have one of the bomb ass jobs some of you guys have...

I don't think the majority of Montana hunters are putting in that amount of time.

 

[Doublecluck]

I wouldn’t care if the entire state of Montana went to LE permits for mule deer bucks.

I typed it but never posted it. lol.

I can only imagine the explosion of opposition if we had suggested making all mule deer hunting LE with the amount of tags available determined as a percentage of the the observed bucks and does of an individual unit. That would get ugly really fast.

 

[Elktrack]

I must be missing something. We already get whitetail in the rut. This proposal only makes the season go a few days further to the end of November. Right?
Last year it went Oct 21- Nov 26 the new proposal isn’t going to motivate additional whitetail hunters. IMO

You aren’t hunting mule deer October and then switching to whitetail in November. You are now either picking mule deer October OR whitetail November

What I meant was there’s no incentive for folks to adopt this based on better whitetail rut hunting as a benefit. I don’t see it resulting in more support for the proposal. Perhaps there’s more whitetail hunters in the areas of concern than I realize. Is taking the whitetail guys out of the picture going to impact mule deer numbers?

I see this as a regional problem and not a statewide issue. I don’t think guys hunting outside of regions 6 and 7 are going to support changes that affect other areas. For example, region 2 guys aren’t going to like this. They already have a mix of season dates and LE units within the region and it’s working fairly well.

Having 6 and 7 under a general tag is the problem. There needs to at least be a mix of LE units. I think it’s going to be a hard sell getting folks to give up the seasons that they’ve had for years. No one complained about hunting the rut until the regions became overcrowded. I’d be surprised if most are willing to give up their rut season.
Reducing the pressure is the answer. I’m not certain that merely changing the dates will have the outcome desired. Too many people pounding the regions will still result in the same outcome.

I think this proposal is a great step in the right direction and appreciate the effort that has gone into it just to get it this far. I know firsthand how difficult it is to enact positive change in policies.

 

[brockel]

What I meant was there’s no incentive for folks to adopt this based on better whitetail rut hunting as a benefit. I don’t see it resulting in more support for the proposal. Perhaps there’s more whitetail hunters in the areas of concern than I realize. Is taking the whitetail guys out of the picture going to impact mule deer numbers?

I see this as a regional problem and not a statewide issue. I don’t think guys hunting outside of regions 6 and 7 are going to support changes that affect other areas. For example, region 2 guys aren’t going to like this. They already have a mix of season dates and LE units within the region and it’s working fairly well.

Having 6 and 7 under a general tag is the problem. There needs to at least be a mix of LE units. I think it’s going to be a hard sell getting folks to give up the seasons that they’ve had for years. No one complained about hunting the rut until the regions became overcrowded. I’d be surprised if most are willing to give up their rut season.
Reducing the pressure is the answer. I’m not certain that merely changing the dates will have the outcome desired. Too many people pounding the regions will still result in the same outcome.

I think this proposal is a great step in the right direction and appreciate the effort that has gone into it just to get it this far. I know firsthand how difficult it is to enact positive change in policies.

You think people would squeal more about losing their general tag and going to a limited draw or losing their rut hunting and keeping a general tag?

 

[bigsky2]

What I meant was there’s no incentive for folks to adopt this based on better whitetail rut hunting as a benefit. I don’t see it resulting in more support for the proposal. Perhaps there’s more whitetail hunters in the areas of concern than I realize. Is taking the whitetail guys out of the picture going to impact mule deer numbers?

I see this as a regional problem and not a statewide issue. I don’t think guys hunting outside of regions 6 and 7 are going to support changes that affect other areas. For example, region 2 guys aren’t going to like this. They already have a mix of season dates and LE units within the region and it’s working fairly well.

Having 6 and 7 under a general tag is the problem. There needs to at least be a mix of LE units. I think it’s going to be a hard sell getting folks to give up the seasons that they’ve had for years. No one complained about hunting the rut until the regions became overcrowded. I’d be surprised if most are willing to give up their rut season.
Reducing the pressure is the answer. I’m not certain that merely changing the dates will have the outcome desired. Too many people pounding the regions will still result in the same outcome.

I think this proposal is a great step in the right direction and appreciate the effort that has gone into it just to get it this far. I know firsthand how difficult it is to enact positive change in policies.

Creating additional LE units is only going to make the remaining general units even more crowded. FWP's mule deer hunting surveys indicate that hunters prefer the opportunity to hunt mule deer bucks every year. This season structure would allow that, while also hunting mule deer when they are less vulnerable.

 

[DWarcher]

Maybe stretch that archery elk into day October 10th.....

Please.

Loosing that last week of archery elk hunting would be my only complaint.

 

[Sioux33]

First off, thanks to everyone involved for taking the time and effort for sitting down and putting this forward. I fully agree with the intent of what this proposal is aiming for and yes, it's time for some kind of change. However, there are a few things that concern me.

First is not having seasons run concurrently. Hear me out on this. I believe it's a blessing in disguise in that it makes you pick elk or deer and cuts the pressure down on each species. Under this structure, it would allow folks to go all out on mulies during October and then all out again on elk in November. I'm more of an elk hunter myself and I do enjoy deer hunting, but it's not my main focus. With this change, I'd be one of the hunters putting much more effort into chasing mulies. I know we'd save some from the elk hunters not shooting a bonus muley, but not to the point that it'd increase pressure from folks putting their sole focus on them.

Second is the October season. I do think this would drive elk onto private before November. The weather's nice in October and rifle season is a calling for MT hunters, so the vehicle traffic, sounds of rifles, and hiking through the hills would do more harm than good in my opinion.

Third is the archery changes. I think our current season structure is a pretty good setup and don't think it's what's contributing to the problems. If anything, I'd be for cutting it off Oct 10th or so, like what some others have mentioned in here earlier.

I do support significantly limiting the rut hunt, that's the crux of the issue in my opinion. However, instead of moving it all into October, I'd rather see all units just cut out the last two or three weeks, like what they did this year in 410/426, then go LE or primitive weapon only after that. ND does something similar to this and seems to be a good way to do it I believe.

I also support picking your area, that's the other crux of the issue. However, with that, I think we'd be better off capping the areas at some point otherwise it could end up like the new elk rule making you only hunt your district, which from what I've seen has drastically increased hunting pressure, forcing folks to hunt through the pressure or just stay home.

Anyways, like I said at the top, I'm thankful for this group putting this proposal together and while I fully agree with the intent of it, I just have some different viewpoints on the "how" of it all.

 

[cgasner1]

Actually quite impressed at how civil the conversation been on here today

 

[Elktrack]

You think people would squeal more about losing their general tag and going to a limited draw or losing their rut hunting and keeping a general tag?

Good question.
I think the ones that would squeal are the same ones that don’t see a problem with the current situation. I think the general tag is more important to most people than the rut dates. But they are equally important to a lot of people. They want their cake and eat it too.


As you are well aware, you’re not going to make them all happy. I do think that there will be more support both from hunters and FWP if it’s a region by region proposal and not statewide.

 

[Elktrack]

Creating additional LE units is only going to make the remaining general units even more crowded. FWP's mule deer hunting surveys indicate that hunters prefer the opportunity to hunt mule deer bucks every year. This season structure would allow that, while also hunting mule deer when they are less vulnerable.

I see your point. It’s worth a shot. I’m not convinced that anything other than reducing the number of people in certain areas will fix it despite dates. Only time would tell if it is effective.

 

[mmarshall173]

If there's no cap on the regions, then those units will just get even more pressure. I hunt 3-4 regions every season looking for a deer I like. If I'm picking my region, then 100% of my time (i.e. pressure) will be dedicated to that region instead of it being distributed over multiple areas.

 

[cgasner1]

If there's no cap on the regions, then those units will just get even more pressure. I hunt 3-4 regions every season looking for a deer I like. If I'm picking my region, then 100% of my time (i.e. pressure) will be dedicated to that region instead of it being distributed over multiple areas.

That is true but I’ve also read that 10% of people that draw a le tag anywhere never step foot into the unit and hunt it. So by this switch it could also get some people to stay home and help with pressure

 

[golfer]

I’ve also read that 10% of people that draw a le tag anywhere never step foot into the unit and hunt it.

Who cares? They applied for it and are now stuck in that unit hunting only. Only thing I see coming from those whining they didn’t get the tag which ruined an opportunity they didn’t have to begin with?

 

[Eric Albus]

Thanks for the efforts.... this is cool to see - and as much as people biotch about HT - this is the only place things like this happen.

Of course - id love to preserve my near endless opportunity but we have to be in tune with reality. I also love the idea of dicing up seasons... Lots of young muley bucks have died from elk disappointment.

Whatever the final version - i plan to send a letter to fwp. @Gerald Martin what other ways can supportive people show backing?

Thank you for sending a note to FWP, we need as many as can spare the $1 for postage and paper/envelope to do so.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Thank you for sending a note to FWP, we need as many as can spare the $1 for postage and paper/envelope to do so.

Of course. Ill post it here too. Something has to change.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Reducing the rut hunt is tantamount in my opinion... I hate to say it - but it almost feels silly to hunt any other time. I think its been that way too long.