Montana Bonus Points - Need Improved

[RockyDog]

Ive got “max” points in another state and was pleasantly surprised to learn that the points actually mean that eventually I can expect to draw a good tag, possibly even in 2010. Being from Montana, this is exciting because our bonus point system suc..i mean is not effective.

In other states they either weight the pref. points or do something like a 75/25 system which means that 75% of the tags are awarded to those who have the most preference points and 25% are awarded at random.
Montana is a purely “random” system, though it is weird the same people consistently draw difficult tags. In Montana many people die of old age after 30 or 40 years of unsuccessful applying. While others will draw the same tags 2 even 3 times along with other species.

I haven’t drawn a special moose, sheep, goat, elk or deer tag after 22 years of applying in Montana. My dad hasn’t drawn even 1 tag after 38 years of applying. His younger brother has drawn several tags in the same areas we apply for. This year I personally know a person who drew the elkhorns bull tag (380) 2 out of the last 3 years, a husband and wife who both drew gardiner late season bull tags their second year in montana, and a person who drew goat tag the first year after his 7 year wait ended.

Would anyone else like to see Montana adopt a better bonus point system ?

 

[The Hedgehog]

Whiner.

 

[----]

I actually like our system the way it's set up now.
If you look at the draw data, most of the tags are going to the higher point holders, although there are people with one or no points drawing.
So i know I have an advantage on the tags that I do have max points for, but still could draw a tag I have no points for.
You haven't drawn in 22 years, but only what, 8? of those years were on the new bonus point plan.
It never actually does guarantee you a tag, but definitely puts the odds in your favor.

I'd like this a lot more than say Utah or Colorado, where I know for sure I won't be hunting a good unit anytime soon.

 

[mtmiller]

....and a person who drew goat tag the first year after his 7 year wait ended.

Would anyone else like to see Montana adopt a better bonus point system ?

He sounds like a jackass to boot. Actually the first time he drew was his first time applying.

That being said, I agree, there should be a better system.

 

[Bambistew]

I've applied for MT for 18 years and nothing yet, I figure sooner or later I'll pull one, in the mean time I'll hunt one or two of them in AK every year in the mean time.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Squaring points might be a good idea but it's hard to do anything more without putting the screws to youth hunters.

Not that a 12-year old will die if they don't draw moose, sheep, or goat tag.

 

[Meatatarian]

In '08 in sheep district 482 there were 424 resident applicants that had the max points and thirteen licenses were drawn by residents. If only the max point applicants could draw the tags, it would take over thirty years just to exhaust this pool of max point applicants. How is that any better? 503, which is not a highly sought after sheep district, still had 45 max point applicants vying for 3 tags. No thanks, I'd rather have a small, but ever-increasing chance of drawing each year than a preference system that may take me thirty years to draw in anyway.

 

[RockyDog]

I forgot to mention the system should EXCLUDE douchebags from applying for moose tags.

MTmiller i was not thinking of you on the goat tag, but you are another example. Ever since the same guy in idaho drew the elk supertag 2 years in a row i cant help but wonder if the people running the lottery computers know if their drawings really are random from year to year.

 

[Big Fin]

Seems to be working pretty good at my house. I had a limited entry bull permit in 2004 and 2009, and my son had one in 2005. Still no Moose or Sheep tags, but I am pretty sure next year, I will get one of those. Yup, already making plans.

In all seriousness Rocky Dog, I understand your concerns. I was one of the committee members who came up with the MT system. None of us got all that we wanted, and we all got some things we hated.

For example, I proposed making Moose, Goat, and Sheep a once in a lifetime event. And, I proposed making the limited entry elk and deer permits to be a seven year wait, like we have for MGS. Neither of those ideas would make much of a statistical difference, but would eliminate the anecdotal comments we always hear, such as you made, about guys drawing back to back, etc.

I almost wish we had the two ideas mentioned above, without a bonus point system. Any type of bonus/preference point system is meant to give better odds to those who have applied for years. Logical, but is completely at the throat of recruiting young hunters. Why would they even apply, if they are 20 points behind us old farts?

None of the bonus point ideas have really changed the statistical odds in any significant manner. Until we can produce more moose, goats, sheep, and increase the number of limited entry units for deer and elk, the odds will always suck. Just simple math, no matter what kind of elaborate point scheme we employ.

I think Idaho and New Mexico have been smart to resist those ideas. The odds do not change very much, and it is just one more level of complexity. And most worrisome, puts younger hunters at a disadvantage.

Just my two cents.

 

[belly-deep]

I have to agree with Big Fin. Its not perfect but they all have disadvantages. Right now, I like the idea of drawing at any time...but ask me when I'm 50 with no ram on the wall and I may change my mind. What I really don't like is getting in line for a tag and having to wait 20 years, or, even worse, knowing I'm too far behind in the points to ever have a chance at drawing.

Personally, I'd like to see MT adopt something like Wyoming does for its non-residents. Most of the people complaining about never drawing a ram tag are older (usually have a little extra $$) and have applied for a long time. You could have a different drawing pool, with a hefty tag price (and a hefty drawing fee) that would prohibit a bunch of people from applying. And you could make it a once-in-a-lifetime drawing pool for only ONE of the three species. Then you would stand a good chance of getting the ONE tag you want ONCE in your life. And if you drew in the general pool again, then good for you.

 

[Gerald Martin]

RockyDog, I don't know you or the areas you appy for so don't take this personally. I've been applying for 9 years and have drawn a moose tag and a goat tag in that time period. I purposefully sought out the easiest units there were to draw and I feel like that (and a lot of luck) were responsible for me getting the tags.

I know of guys around here that have been applying for the local goat unit for 20-25 years without success. But the way I look at it, the odds are about 1 in 80 for drawing a goat tag here. The odds in the unit I drew were 1 in 13 and I had six bonus points when I drew. The moose unit I drew had 1 in 20 odds compared to 1 in 60-80 for some of the more popular units. I had to travel 8 hours one way for each of those animals. Both tags were in units I didn't know very well. I would have loved to had tags in units that were more familiar to me and more popular in the draws but I figured I would put in for the units I had the most chance of drawing a tag in. At least I would be able to hunt.

So, sometimes I hear people making your same complaint and it fall on deaf ears because I know that they are habitually drawing in extremely hard to draw areas because it happens to be near to where they live.

I usually don't voice my opinions too loud because I 've been one of the lucky ones and I don't like to rile people up. But I do think the current system is pretty good. I am NOT in favor of a true preference point system like some other states use.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Oh yeah, and if you want your wife to get a special tag just get her pregnant. That's what it take for my wife to draw a tag. She drew a ram tag with our second born and this year she drew a special elk permit. She's due the first of Jan.

 

[The Hedgehog]

RockyDog, I'm planning a bighorn sheep hunt next fall, most likely in the breaks. You can come along if you want - I just don't know how I'm going to schedule it around my goat hunt. But since I'll be hunting in the Bridgers for goats, I don't think it'll matter much. It's so close to home.

 

[mdhunter]

I apply all over the west and bank points wherever possible. All that said I am still years from likely pulling a trophy tag in many states. My opinion is with Big Fin. I never miss applying in New Mexico every year as I have the same odds as everyone else. What better way to discourage a young hunter than tell them they are guaranteed to wait fifteen years to pull a tag. Like it or not the future of this sport is the youth.

 

[Breaks Runner]

I'm 0 for 42 on sheep in Montana....I drew Goat and Moose the same year in 1977. o-fer the past 32 years on those.

Ask me what I think of a twelve year old kid that moved to Montana with his parents in 2007 and draws a breaks sheep permit in 2008.....

So a young hunter has to apply for 15 years....starting at twelve he is still only 27 when he draws. Youth hunters here can hunt deer, elk and antelope every year so I dont buy the discouraged young hunter bit. Plus they can also hunt un-limited rams every year as well.

I have two adult kids that I mentored as hunters here in Montana when they were growing up and I have two more on they way up right now that will be old enough in a few years...trust me I know the importance of bringing young hunters into the sport.

When I was helping the film crew with Vaughn's bighorn hunt this past October we were all standing around talking about sheep when one of the younger guys asked me if I'd ever drawn a ram permit....I told him not yet....he then asked me if I'd always applied for the breaks....I told him when I started applying for sheep permits there wernt any sheep in the breaks at that time as they had not been transplanted yet...he then asked if that was the homestead era....he got me good on that one!!

Anyway thats just my little rant.....Pat

 

[RockyDog]

Some good points on all sides here. I still think the system needs improved, i do not like a system that results in a montana newbie drawing a "once-in-alifetime" tag 2 or 3 times while others who lived their entire life in montana get too old to hunt without ever drawing one tag. The youth hunt example is true, but under a 75/25 system the youths would still have a chance to draw.

As for my "anecdotal" examples, i didnt even list all the wierd stuff i have seen happen in the draws. I really do wonder if there is an honest glitch in the computer system that causes certain ALS #s to be repeatedly drawn over the years (ie, MTMillers goat tag). How could idaho fish and game have not wondered the same thing when the guy who bought one ticket drew the elk supertag 2 years in a row? Does FWP hire topnotch computer programmers?

Greenhorn i will take the job of being your packmule if you draw a breaks sheep, however if i draw my tags and am not available i suggest you contact a little known sheep guide in the breaks. dont want to name him but his initials are J.L.

 

[mtmiller]

Kurt and JL standing over a dead sheep....priceless.

Rockydog I agree, I do like the WY deer/elk/lope system....other than the special draw option....I would not be opposed to a 50/50 over the 75/25 though.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I'll give him some gas money - no problem. I couldn't tell a 190 from a 205 to save my life, so I'm totally down with having him along, and 25 or so other friends. Look for the DVD "Sheep Assault 2010 - Just another day in the breaks"

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

I would be more in favor of a system that for every year you put in that is how many times your "name" or number goes into the draw. That way everyone still has a chance of drawing the tag but guys who put in for 15 (that seems to be the number of choice here) years will have their number in the draw 15 times, thus increasing their odds of drawing.

I hate the 75/25 rule. In many areas that leaves maybe 1 tag when talking about moose, sheep etc.

I also don't buy the "song" that because you live in a state for 15 years you have more of a right to that tag than someone that moved there a couple years back. Thats too bad. Deal with it. But to essentially screw the younger generation from even having a chance of drawing a tag? I don't think so. And I'll bet you it would not take long for the points system to make the dream of drawing a sheep tag in 15 years just that.... A dream. Try 20, 30 40 years etc......

 

[belly-deep]

I would be more in favor of a system that for every year you put in that is how many times your "name" or number goes into the draw. That way everyone still has a chance of drawing the tag but guys who put in for 15 (that seems to be the number of choice here) years will have their number in the draw 15 times, thus increasing their odds of drawing.

Uhhh... that is exactly how the MT BP system works...