Minimum ages, mentor tags, and other rambling thoughts
BuzzH
Well-known member
I'm with the hunttalk turd clan on this one.
There is NO valid reason that kids under 12 should be hunting in Montana.
IMO, starting kids too early and pushing them to hunt before they're actually ready could have the exact opposite effect, and turn them off to hunting.
The trouble is, that for the very, very, very few kids that are actually interested, mature, and intellectually ready to hunt, the majority simply are not.
Further, many parents will force their kids to buy tags and hunt the day they turn ten whether they want to or not, in particular if it means an extra tag for Junior.
IMO/E, most parents have a pretty one-sided view on how "ready" their kids are to hunt, play sports, etc. and are not very objective...thinking their kid is the next Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or Jim Shockey.
Setting the bar at 12 years old makes a lot of sense for a lot of good reasons and should stay that way.
Glad the bill was tabled.
There is NO valid reason that kids under 12 should be hunting in Montana.
IMO, starting kids too early and pushing them to hunt before they're actually ready could have the exact opposite effect, and turn them off to hunting.
The trouble is, that for the very, very, very few kids that are actually interested, mature, and intellectually ready to hunt, the majority simply are not.
Further, many parents will force their kids to buy tags and hunt the day they turn ten whether they want to or not, in particular if it means an extra tag for Junior.
IMO/E, most parents have a pretty one-sided view on how "ready" their kids are to hunt, play sports, etc. and are not very objective...thinking their kid is the next Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or Jim Shockey.
Setting the bar at 12 years old makes a lot of sense for a lot of good reasons and should stay that way.
Glad the bill was tabled.
D
Deleted member 20812
Guest
This is my daughter at age 10 with her first deer. Of course, it was shot on an alfalfa field with a bipod, so it might not make her a hunter.
This is my daughter at age 11 with her second deer. This was one was shot after a belly crawl through the sagebrush next to an alfalfa field. She still used a bipod, so the jury is still out on whether it made her a hunter.
This is my daughter at age 11 with her third deer and first buck. This one was shot after a belly crawl across the prairie, but still using a bipod. She is probably now a quasi-hunter.
Her desire to hunt was never harmed by her tagging along with me before she was allowed to hunt. However, I don't think there's a kid alive who wouldn't rather be on the gun him/herself rather than watching mom or dad shoot.
I didn't kill my first deer until I was 19, but in all honesty my dad was a very poor hunting mentor. We quit hunting together when I was 22 because he couldn't get it through his head that I didn't want him shooting my deer, and I didn't think ground checking bucks to see if they were legal was a very cool practice.
I killed my first elk when I was 24 while hunting with my uncle. It was and is still to this day one of my most memorable hunts ever, so I completely get that hunting is not just about the kill or the size of the antlers. I remember that spike as vividly as any 6 point bull I've shot.
I can firmly agree with some of the arguments set forth. Buzz is entirely correct in some parents pushing their kids. My oldest daughter took Hunter Ed at age 10 and has never pulled the trigger on an animal, and I doubt she ever will. That's perfectly fine with me. My youngest has asked about taking Hunter Ed, but at age 9 I don't yet see the emotional and physical maturity that I think she needs to be a safe hunter, and as such very likely would not pass the Hunter Ed class.
2nd Edit: I also take exception to the some of the inferences that if kids don't have tags they are left at home. All three of my girls accompanied us on hunting trips when I carried them in a backpack carrier. Two of them have sat with me in the archery blind eating Funyuns and drinking Dr. Pepper. To insinuate that those of us advocating for a younger minimum or no minimum age don't get the big picture of the hunt is entirely incorrect.
This is my daughter at age 11 with her second deer. This was one was shot after a belly crawl through the sagebrush next to an alfalfa field. She still used a bipod, so the jury is still out on whether it made her a hunter.
This is my daughter at age 11 with her third deer and first buck. This one was shot after a belly crawl across the prairie, but still using a bipod. She is probably now a quasi-hunter.
Her desire to hunt was never harmed by her tagging along with me before she was allowed to hunt. However, I don't think there's a kid alive who wouldn't rather be on the gun him/herself rather than watching mom or dad shoot.
I didn't kill my first deer until I was 19, but in all honesty my dad was a very poor hunting mentor. We quit hunting together when I was 22 because he couldn't get it through his head that I didn't want him shooting my deer, and I didn't think ground checking bucks to see if they were legal was a very cool practice.
I killed my first elk when I was 24 while hunting with my uncle. It was and is still to this day one of my most memorable hunts ever, so I completely get that hunting is not just about the kill or the size of the antlers. I remember that spike as vividly as any 6 point bull I've shot.
I can firmly agree with some of the arguments set forth. Buzz is entirely correct in some parents pushing their kids. My oldest daughter took Hunter Ed at age 10 and has never pulled the trigger on an animal, and I doubt she ever will. That's perfectly fine with me. My youngest has asked about taking Hunter Ed, but at age 9 I don't yet see the emotional and physical maturity that I think she needs to be a safe hunter, and as such very likely would not pass the Hunter Ed class.
2nd Edit: I also take exception to the some of the inferences that if kids don't have tags they are left at home. All three of my girls accompanied us on hunting trips when I carried them in a backpack carrier. Two of them have sat with me in the archery blind eating Funyuns and drinking Dr. Pepper. To insinuate that those of us advocating for a younger minimum or no minimum age don't get the big picture of the hunt is entirely incorrect.
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HSi-ESi
Well-known member
I just don't see where having individuals wait until they are 12 years old (or 11 if birthday is before Jan 16 of the hunting year) causes any harm. There are much bigger issues to fight about than this.
I think that the majority of folks on this site understand that the development of a hunter / woodsman takes a long time - and the act of being the shooter isn't the only determination of a hunter. Quoting my latest hunting partner:
"I am Daddy's best hunting buddy. Especially when I can bugle for him."
She's now 5 and has been going out on "hunts" with me for 2 seasons. We're in the early stages of development - and I really look forward to the next several seasons of teaching her. But it's also camping, hiking, skiing, fishing - etc.
Figuring that my kids "hunting development" goes along with what I did - then they'll be proficient enough to be the shooter way before 12. But waiting until 12 doesn't hurt them - and can allow for more emotional development for handling situations with grace.
All this being said, I think Nameless Range is spot on here:
I realize that many individuals have the ability to "be the shooter" before 12, but I think it puts the focus in the wrong place.
Work on tracking, blood trails, reading the wind, reading animals body languages, types of flowers / trees, map orienteering, target shooting, knot tying, fishing.
There are so many things for kids outdoors - that for this to be a big issue really seems like it's just to feed adult's egos.
I think that the majority of folks on this site understand that the development of a hunter / woodsman takes a long time - and the act of being the shooter isn't the only determination of a hunter. Quoting my latest hunting partner:
"I am Daddy's best hunting buddy. Especially when I can bugle for him."
She's now 5 and has been going out on "hunts" with me for 2 seasons. We're in the early stages of development - and I really look forward to the next several seasons of teaching her. But it's also camping, hiking, skiing, fishing - etc.
Figuring that my kids "hunting development" goes along with what I did - then they'll be proficient enough to be the shooter way before 12. But waiting until 12 doesn't hurt them - and can allow for more emotional development for handling situations with grace.
All this being said, I think Nameless Range is spot on here:
I realize that many individuals have the ability to "be the shooter" before 12, but I think it puts the focus in the wrong place.
Work on tracking, blood trails, reading the wind, reading animals body languages, types of flowers / trees, map orienteering, target shooting, knot tying, fishing.
There are so many things for kids outdoors - that for this to be a big issue really seems like it's just to feed adult's egos.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Couldn't agree any more with that post, well said.
There you go. Most of the usual players have chimed in. The Montana way, is the only way. I get it. Its the same lame arguments and fear mongering every time this topic comes up here.:W:
The facts are, its a very safe and effective program where its been implemented in other states. Perhaps the Montana program that was proposed, needs some "tweeking". In my home state, the mentor and youth can only have one firearm. It must be carried to a stationary position. The mentor must then stay within arms reach of the youth.
Hunting whitetails from a ground blind in the east or south, is totally different than chasing elk through the high country of the west. So lets put your heads together and figure something out. It seems the program could be tailored in some way, to work for Montana families.
I had to wait until I was 12 to start hunting too. It didn't hurt my desire either. Whats your point?
As for me, I'll keep hunting whities with my 9 and 11 year old. BTW our favorite weapon is the crossbow. I'm thinking of adding some lighted nocks this year, to help better determine shot placement. Oh the horror!
The facts are, its a very safe and effective program where its been implemented in other states. Perhaps the Montana program that was proposed, needs some "tweeking". In my home state, the mentor and youth can only have one firearm. It must be carried to a stationary position. The mentor must then stay within arms reach of the youth.
Hunting whitetails from a ground blind in the east or south, is totally different than chasing elk through the high country of the west. So lets put your heads together and figure something out. It seems the program could be tailored in some way, to work for Montana families.
I had to wait until I was 12 to start hunting too. It didn't hurt my desire either. Whats your point?
As for me, I'll keep hunting whities with my 9 and 11 year old. BTW our favorite weapon is the crossbow. I'm thinking of adding some lighted nocks this year, to help better determine shot placement. Oh the horror!
D
Deleted member 20812
Guest
While I agree with Hsi-Esi's assessment that there is much more to learn in the world of hunting than simply being able to shoot an animal, let me offer up this.
A parent who is likely going to teach their kid the nuances of hunting beyond the kill is very likely to do so whether their kid has a tag or not. The parent who is a poor mentor (not just in hunting but probably across the board in life) is very unlikely to teach those nuances to their kid before they have a tag, and also after they have a tag.
I can look at a classroom of Hunter Ed students and tell you within the first half hour, which parents will take the time to really TEACH their kids to hunt and the ones who will simply take their kids hunting. To think that a minimum age will change this is wishful thinking, in the realm of my small and shallow mind.
A parent who is likely going to teach their kid the nuances of hunting beyond the kill is very likely to do so whether their kid has a tag or not. The parent who is a poor mentor (not just in hunting but probably across the board in life) is very unlikely to teach those nuances to their kid before they have a tag, and also after they have a tag.
I can look at a classroom of Hunter Ed students and tell you within the first half hour, which parents will take the time to really TEACH their kids to hunt and the ones who will simply take their kids hunting. To think that a minimum age will change this is wishful thinking, in the realm of my small and shallow mind.
Big Sky
Well-known member
Of all the places I have been fortunate to hunt on this planet I would say Alaska was one of the most dangerous. It's a great place to get killed in a heart beat if you don't have common sense, or are just really unlucky. The elements, environment or animals will take your life without remorse. In other words, in many parts of Alaska you better have your act together or you will be in the obituaries pretty darn quick. Any one want to venture a guess as to what the minimum age limit is for hunting in Alaska?
Dan O
Well-known member
Boy this is a hot topic with passionate opinions on both sides. Here are a few ideas that will upset some and not others.
First
The idea that you cannot take your child hunting until they turn legal age to buy a tag is baloney. They can participate in every part with the exception of pulling the trigger.
Second
The youth hunts are a great idea but there seems to be some abuse by unethical parents/mentors. One idea would be on these hunts (early youth hunt only) The parent must use their tag and the youth tag is not valid for the rest of the season if successful during the youth hunt. Sure the parent takes a hit here but after all it's about the youth , right?
Third
The youth must take and pass a hunter ed class prior to being allowed to legally hunt. SAFETY FIRST AND FOREMOST!!
Fourth
If there are multiple youths in the family then other adult family members could let them hunt with the youth and commit their tag to the youth. I know I would for my youth or niece or nephew.
Well hopefully this will not get flamed by everyone but instead look at the commitment to get kids out hunting and teach them safety and ethics. Plus showing the commitment of the adults to get this process moving forward.
Just some thoughts ymm
Dan
First
The idea that you cannot take your child hunting until they turn legal age to buy a tag is baloney. They can participate in every part with the exception of pulling the trigger.
Second
The youth hunts are a great idea but there seems to be some abuse by unethical parents/mentors. One idea would be on these hunts (early youth hunt only) The parent must use their tag and the youth tag is not valid for the rest of the season if successful during the youth hunt. Sure the parent takes a hit here but after all it's about the youth , right?
Third
The youth must take and pass a hunter ed class prior to being allowed to legally hunt. SAFETY FIRST AND FOREMOST!!
Fourth
If there are multiple youths in the family then other adult family members could let them hunt with the youth and commit their tag to the youth. I know I would for my youth or niece or nephew.
Well hopefully this will not get flamed by everyone but instead look at the commitment to get kids out hunting and teach them safety and ethics. Plus showing the commitment of the adults to get this process moving forward.
Just some thoughts ymm
Dan
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2000
- Messages
- 11,606
Too many people overlook the value of a rite of passage.
Idaho changed it's age requirements this year allowing my 11-year old to big game hunt. He's been bird hunting since age 9. This boy (and his brother) have been following me hunting since age 5. He's earned NRA Expert riflemen on his rifle team and easily passed his safety course at age 9. Why should he wait to hunt big game at age 12? He shot this deer at 250 yards and was excited to killed his first deer. He'll be a hunter for life because of opportunities to hunt.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Yes, and kids shouldn't hunt big-game until they're 12 and have passed hunters safety.
D
Deleted member 20812
Guest
You guys might find this interesting, or you might not.
http://www.nwtf.org/images/Youth_Hunting_Report.pdf
http://www.nwtf.org/images/Youth_Hunting_Report.pdf
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Montana regulations require anyone from age 11 (if turning 12 by mid January) through 14 yrs to complete Hunters Education and then hunt with an adult.
So then what is proposed is for persons under age 11 to not have to complete Hunters Education but to have the same hunting privilege as those 11 through 14 yrs old.
Does anyone else see the flaw in reasoning here?
So then what is proposed is for persons under age 11 to not have to complete Hunters Education but to have the same hunting privilege as those 11 through 14 yrs old.
Does anyone else see the flaw in reasoning here?
D
Deleted member 20812
Guest
I am not sure about other states, but here the highest age demographic for hunting accidents is 20-29. Next is 10-19, closely followed by 30-39. Anyone born after January 1, 1972 is required to take a Hunter Ed class prior to hunting unless they receive a Hunter Ed deferral (good for one year only).
Do you have kids Buzz?
