Militia takes over wildlife refuge headquarters

[jryoung]

I'm curious as to where the Bundys and others get their finances. I have to work for a living and couldn't afford to take up residence like that and vow to stay years if necessary. Where is he getting his money to pay his bills and support his family?

One way to increase your margin is to lower your costs.....as in not paying your leasing fees.

 

[Ben Lamb]

One way to increase your margin is to lower your costs.....as in not paying your leasing fees.

& defaulting on a $500K SBA loan.

 

[hank4elk]

...and not working your whole life to BUY YOUR OWN LAND to what you want,pretty much.
Big savings.

 

[Colberjs]

In defense of the Bundy's, if they really view the federal government as the enemy, there is nothing hypocritical or wrong with availing themselves of anything and everything they can get from the enemy. Indeed, if you can get your enemy to fund your opposition (knowingly or not) then you are smart. The fool is the enemy who continues to fund.

Smart? Yeah, maybe....

Hypocrisy? Still yes.....

These are programs made available to tax-paying citizens. Without having seen any of their tax filings (or lack thereof) I don't think it would be a stretch to assume, based on the fact they publicly state that they don't acknowledge federal authority, that they probably don't pay taxes. But what do I know?

 

[Southwind]

One way to increase your margin is to lower your costs.....as in not paying your leasing fees.

If I had the sweetheart lease rates before they quit paying I would have a lot of extra expendable cash. 90% plus reduction from market lease rates.

 

[Ben Lamb]

In defense of the Bundy's, if they really view the federal government as the enemy, there is nothing hypocritical or wrong with availing themselves of anything and everything they can get from the enemy. Indeed, if you can get your enemy to fund your opposition (knowingly or not) then you are smart. The fool is the enemy who continues to fund.

Claiming that the Fed has no jurisdiction nor legitimate right to manage public land, while taking taxpayer money & subsidies is the height of hypocrisy. IMO.

Taking over a Federal building and keeping people off of their own land while brandishing firearms and saying they want to overthrow the government is sedition.

The Bundy's deserve 3 hots and a cot for at least 20 years.

 

[James Riley]

Like I said, it's not hypocrisy if you consider them an enemy. Look up "the false and lazy charge of hypocrisy." Better yet, look up "war" and "enemy" and "insurgency" and, well, never mind. I guess if you call Crazy Horse a hypocrite for using a Winchester to kill white people then yeah, I guess they're hypocrites.

 

[mtmander]

Another web site's story
http://theconservativetreehouse.com...uge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

 

[shootbrownelk]

This doesn't really answer your question. But highlights their hypocrisy further:

http://grist.org/article/7-kinds-of-government-subsidies-those-angry-ranchers-get-that-you-dont/

In terms of the Bundy debacle:

That sure was an interesting read NR, I knew about all the freebies that these moochers get from the Taxpayers, but I was told (by a rancher) that the BLM federal grazing fee was $3.25 per Cow/Calf unit per month....boy was I wrong. I checked YOUR figure, It's correct...$1.25 per unit month. That pisses me off even more. And these leeches want it for free? Smoke 'em out like rats and haul their asses to a Federal Prison, they can occupy that for as long as they like.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Like I said, it's not hypocrisy if you consider them an enemy. Look up "the false and lazy charge of hypocrisy." Better yet, look up "war" and "enemy" and "insurgency" and, well, never mind. I guess if you call Crazy Horse a hypocrite for using a Winchester to kill white people then yeah, I guess they're hypocrites.

So then we are in agreement that the Bundy's are trying to wage war against the United States and her citizens.

The Crazy Horse analogy doesn't really work. A Winchester isn't a $500K loan from the citizens of the US to open a small business.

For the Bundy's to claim that the Fed. Gov't has not right to exist, then take their money in an attempt to defraud the citizens is the height of hypocrisy. TO use public land and then to deny the inexpensive lease rates is theft of public resources, not a tactic in a poorly thought out strategy to end the Federal Gov't.

 

[James Riley]

So then we are in agreement that the Bundy's are trying to wage war against the United States and her citizens.

The Crazy Horse analogy doesn't really work. A Winchester isn't a $500K loan from the citizens of the US to open a small business.

For the Bundy's to claim that the Fed. Gov't has not right to exist, then take their money in an attempt to defraud the citizens is the height of hypocrisy. TO use public land and then to deny the inexpensive lease rates is theft of public resources, not a tactic in a poorly thought out strategy to end the Federal Gov't.

We are in agreement that the Bundy's are trying to wage war against the United States and her citizens.

The Crazy Horse analogy works perfect. An analogy, by definition, is not the thing itself. It is no argument to simply point that out. Rather, if you wish to defeat it you must draw a distinction with a *relevant* difference.

Based upon your stipulation about the waging of war, the rest of your post about hypocrisy fails.

I hate roads but I am not a hypocrite for crossing one to get to a roadless area. I believe in conservation of resources but if I save a gallon of gas I just increased supply, which reduced the price, which encouraged Bundy to buy that gallon and roll coal on the road. So I lose either way. You take your war and your world as you find it and move from there. Your enemy will call you all kinds of names, incorrectly, and hypocrite is the least of them. What is "shock and awe" if not state-sponsored terrorism? Viet Cong are "cowards" for not coming out and fighting us fair and square? The list goes on. In short, when it comes to war it is perfectly fine for you to call the enemy a hypocrite. Wrong? Yes, but perfectly fine nonetheless. All is fair, including taking what you can get from the enemy.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Taking a weapon from a dead soldier to make more dead soldiers is completely different than defrauding investors in your small business (taxpayers) and does nothing to cause more dead soldiers. It's a bad analogy.

Saying that moonshiners, who avoided royalties and taxes while usurping roads paid for by taxpayers is much better.

In both scenarios, there is hypocrisy. The moonshiners just provided a public good.

 

[James Riley]

Taking a weapon from a dead soldier to make more dead soldiers is completely different than defrauding investors in your small business (taxpayers) and does nothing to cause more dead soldiers. It's a bad analogy.

Saying that moonshiners, who avoided royalties and taxes while usurping roads paid for by taxpayers is much better.

In both scenarios, there is hypocrisy. The moonshiners just provided a public good.

You keep taking war out of the equation after you already stipulated to it. The analogy stands.

 

[1_pointer]

That sure was an interesting read NR, I knew about all the freebies that these moochers get from the Taxpayers, but I was told (by a rancher) that the BLM federal grazing fee was $3.25 per Cow/Calf unit per month....boy was I wrong. I checked YOUR figure, It's correct...$1.25 per unit month. That pisses me off even more. And these leeches want it for free? Smoke 'em out like rats and haul their asses to a Federal Prison, they can occupy that for as long as they like.

He may very well have been paying $3.25/AUM. The base rate is set each year, but if you are grazing it as a sub-lease the rate is higher due to the added surcharge. The surcharges in 2015 varied from $2.56 to $12.71 depending on which state it was in.

Also, individual offices can charge more than the base rate with the extra charged going into an account for range improvement installation and/or maintenance.

As I stated/posted earlier, the true cost comparison at just the dollar value between a federal lease and one on private is not an apples to apples comparison. If you are truly interested the CAST report that I linked to is a very good resource.

 

[Oak]

That sure was an interesting read NR, I knew about all the freebies that these moochers get from the Taxpayers, but I was told (by a rancher) that the BLM federal grazing fee was $3.25 per Cow/Calf unit per month....boy was I wrong. I checked YOUR figure, It's correct...$1.25 per unit month. That pisses me off even more. And these leeches want it for free? Smoke 'em out like rats and haul their asses to a Federal Prison, they can occupy that for as long as they like.

Not disagreeing that they pay a ridiculously low rate, but for the record the current rate is $1.69/AUM. The lowest it can go is $1.35/AUM. The 2016 rate should be out in the next couple of weeks. Carry on....

 

[Oak]

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2016/01/at_bundy_encampment_outsider_s.html

More and more like Jerry Springer every day, while the Feds do what?

 

[Ben Lamb]

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2016/01/at_bundy_encampment_outsider_s.html

More and more like Jerry Springer every day, while the Feds do what?

Maybe they're a little leery of crazies with guns in a rural, western compound. It's not like they've had this experience before...oh wait.

I hope they don't intercede. It's too much fun.

 

[katqanna]

High Country News covered the issues with the Hammonds (father and son) with USFWS back in 1994, when the Hammonds were arrested for physically interfering with the feds, threatening their lives.

The events of Aug. 3 are outlined in the sworn affidavit of special agent Earl M. Kisler, who assisted in the Hammonds' arrest. On the day the fence was to be built, the crew and refuge officials arrived to find Hammond had parked his Caterpillar scraper squarely on the boundary line and disabled it, removing the battery and draining fuel lines. When a tow truck arrived to move it, Dwight Hammond showed up, leaped to the controls of the scraper and hit a lever that lowered the bucket, narrowly missing another special agent. Meanwhile, said Kisler, Steve Hammond shouted obscenities at federal officials. Neither Hammond resisted arrest.

"The refuge has been trying to work with Hammond for many years," said agency spokeswoman Susan Saul. A thick file at refuge headquarters reveals just how patient refuge managers have been. Hammond allegedly made death threats against previous managers in 1986 and 1988 and against Cameron, the current manager, in 1991 and again this year. Saul said Hammond has never given the required 24 hours' notice before moving his cows across the refuge and that he allowed the cows to linger for as long as three days, trespassing along streams and trampling young willows that refuge workers had planted to repair damage wrought by years of overgrazing.

 

[JohnCushman]

We have enough people with guns on here and long range shooting 'experts' and internet badasses and all that we should start our own militia and take the compound back over and bring enough snacks and baby wipes and solar chargers for our cell phones!!! :hump:

 

[Oneye]

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/pi...m-not-going-let-some-other-people-be-my-face/


Can someone explain after the sheriff asked these people to leave and ranchers acknowledge there are issues but seem to agree the BLM and US Fish and Wildlife service are working with them for better resolution, why the hell these idiots are still there?