Meat Damage vs. Killing Power

[VikingsGuy]

To me, hydrostatic shock is a myth. mtmuley

I agree and I believe catastrophic blood loss/BP drop is the most reliable path to kills - hence the effectiveness of the double lung shot. Nice big target, no major bones, lots of blood rich tissue. Of course CNS bullet damage is the other way, but is a much less reliable shot in my opinion.

 

[ShadowFast1]

My unscientific opinion on what kills game is thus:

1. Damage to the central nervous system. Either with damage to the brain, damage to the circulatory system that leads to asphyxiation due to lack of oxygen rich blood reaching the brain, or damage to the respiratory system that leads to asphyxiation due to interruption of the gas exchange that occurs in the lungs leading to a lack of oxygen rich blood reaching the brain, and damage to the portion of the spinal cord that sends signal to the circulatory or respiratory systems.

2. Damage to other systems such as the renal, excretory, digestive, or urinary which can lead to malnutrition, sepsis, immunodeficiency, etc. This can be caused by direct tissue damage or as a result of circulatory system or nervous system damage.

3. Infection and disease.

The speed at which these things result in death or incapacitation depend on any number of things including what other trauma was incurred during the generation of the wound, the size of the game, the resilience of the game, the size of the wound, which system incurred the damage, etc.

It's interesting how game reacts to being wounded in different ways. Everything from instant incapacitation to a slow painful death to full recovery. I've personally never had an animal fall where they stood from a lung/heart shot, only from a central nervous system shot, regardless as to what type of bullet I used. Terminal performance is not always textbook.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I've personally never had an animal fall where they stood from a lung/heart shot, only from a central nervous system shot, regardless as to what type of bullet I used. Terminal performance is not always textbook.

We each have our own experiences so I am not discounting yours, but in a separate post earlier today regarding TTSX bullets I listed 14 kills in the last year for animals ranging from 100 to 1,000 pounds and over distances from 140 yards to 405 yards. 12 of the 14 were double lung shots. 6 or 7 of the dozen double lung shots were dropped where they stood, none of them went more than 50 yards. Cartridges ranged from 25-06 to 300WSM. The TTSX bullets (and one Hammer) made the organs in the chest cavities look like they had been put through a blender. My best guess is that a catastrophic drop in blood pressure caused the "bang flops". I can't speak to CNS shots as I do not attempt them but I would guess they would drop where shot as well.

 

[mtmuley]

VG, 14 kills ain't much. I've saved every tag that I notched since myself and family have filled using a certain bullet. I'm gonna dig them up. mtmuley

 

[VikingsGuy]

VG, 14 kills ain't much. I've saved every tag that I notched since myself and family have filled using a certain bullet. I'm gonna dig them up. mtmuley

Maybe if we used RUMs we would do better

But seriously, except for the safari this summer, we usually only get 2 or 3 animals a year (one rifle hunting trip) -- I have to start working harder at working less so I can hunt more!

 

[mtmuley]

Maybe if we used RUMs we would do better

Funny how guys think me and the rest of my family use a RUM exclusively. mtmuley

 

[ShadowFast1]

VG, 14 kills ain't much. I've saved every tag that I notched since myself and family have filled using a certain bullet. I'm gonna dig them up. mtmuley

My guess is Hammers. What sort of effect have you seen on game from a heart/lung shot? Have you had any experiences with meat loss?

 

[mtmuley]

My guess is Hammers. What sort of effect have you seen on game from a heart/lung shot? Have you had any experiences with meat loss?

Nope, not Hammers. I've since started shooting them awhile ago though. mtmuley

 

[ShadowFast1]

Nope, not Hammers. I've since started shooting them awhile ago though. mtmuley

That's what I get for making an assumption.

 

[ImBillT]

The quickest killing bullet made IMO is the Berger VLD and other like it. At closer ranges it penetrates 3"or so with out much expansion and then comes completely unhinged. Caliber hole going in and appears as if a bomb went off inside the chest cavity.

That’s been my experience.

 

[ImBillT]

I agree and I believe catastrophic blood loss/BP drop is the most reliable path to kills - hence the effectiveness of the double lung shot. Nice big target, no major bones, lots of blood rich tissue. Of course CNS bullet damage is the other way, but is a much less reliable shot in my opinion.

I shoot for a double lung for two reasons. To bleed the animal for flavor’s sake, and because it’s a good sized target that actually saves most of the meat.

I believe that the “instant” kills most people attribute hydrostatic shock are actually one of three things.
1. A high shot that disrupts the spinal cord even it doesn’t appear to be hit.
2. A shot just forward of the heart that hits or disrupts he autonomic nervous plexus.
3. Breaking shoulders that cause the animal to fall, and it’s dead by the time you get up to it.

I shoot a bullet that gives me the most massive hemorrhaging of any bullet I’ve ever used. I’ve lost precious little meat when I hit where I intended to simply because the double lung is a meat saver.

 

[mtmuley]

VLD's rock Bill. mtmuley

 

[VikingsGuy]

Funny how guys think me and the rest of my family use a RUM exclusively. mtmuley

I make no such assumptions, but like the “bit”.

 

[ImBillT]

VLD's rock Bill. mtmuley

They have treated me very well. I left the name out in that particular post because I was simply agreeing with you and VikingsGuy in regard to hydrostatic shock vs blood loss and didn’t feel the need to taint anyone’s interpretation with the idea that I’m hawking a specific bullet.

Hammer away.

I have no problem with Hammers. I’m simply happy with what I use at this point in time. If I ever hunt somewhere that requires a nontoxic bullet, or ever loose faith in VLDs, I’ll probably try Hammers.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Funny how guys think me and the rest of my family use a RUM exclusively. mtmuley

I'm a RUM shooter myself and will vouch.

 

[cahunter805]

I love bullet discussions. Next we will be talking about “knock down power”!
I’m a big VLD fan and like the way they perform on game.

 

[std7mag]

For years, when i had my 06', i shot 165gr BTs. DRT out to 300 yards. No tracking required.
Then i hit a smallish buck that i hadn't noticed was slightly quartering away at 125 yards. Litterally picked it up & threw him.
Bullet sized hole on entry, fist sized hole on exit through shoulder.

Shooting 7mm-08 the other year, 400 yards on large doe with Berger VLD Hunting. Bullet did exactly as advertised. Went in about 3 inches and came apart. Found jacket under offside hide. Massive internal damage! 2 bullet sized holes through the ribs.
Same results for my daughter with my 257 Roberts 115gr Berger VLD about 40 yards away.

 

[Brian in Montana]

I've never been a fan of rapid expansion bullets, but I get the appeal and theory behind it. I do think there is something to be said for a bullet that will "explode", basically, inside the chest cavity and transfer every foot-pound of available kinetic energy into the target and thereby cause massive and immediate organ failure: turn the insides to raspberry slush so to speak, but these bullets do tend to blow up usable meat too.

For me, I really like a bullet whose design tends more to cause a wound channel and exit hole. They kill fast too and you don't have pick lead and copper out of your meat afterward, well less anyway. I don't think hydrostatic shock is a myth, I just think it's a little over-rated. Like everything else, it's all a balance. A good wound channel is big but not a detonation.

It's nice when bang-flop happens but the only way to ensure that is by hitting the spine or brain, which I don't think are good targets due to their size/shape.

 

[Brian in Montana]

As back to the OP, if you really like Hornady (I do too) you might try using Interbonds, or just the standard Interlock BTSP. SSTs and ELD-X are considered rapid expanders, wheres the performance of the Interbond should be similar to the Accubond. And the Interlock will have much more controlled expansion with a similar price to the SST - don't let that lead tip fool you, Interlocks are darn good bullets.

 

[Walkathon]

As back to the OP, if you really like Hornady (I do too) you might try using Interbonds, or just the standard Interlock BTSP. SSTs and ELD-X are considered rapid expanders, wheres the performance of the Interbond should be similar to the Accubond. And the Interlock will have much more controlled expansion with a similar price to the SST - don't let that lead tip fool you, Interlocks are darn good bullets.

I've also had great experiences with the Interlock. 140GR out of my .270 Win.