Losses at the Forest Service

[Hunting Wife]

Not all federal employees have a union btw. We do not. Most of our positions are considered “management” for some reason I guess? Not even sure. All I know is in 18 years I’ve never heard of a union nor met anyone that is a member of one.

 

[Deleted member 13457]

I am concerned about what this means for our public lands and the often very dedicated people who protect and maintain them, but have definitely been reflecting on the past 27 years of western hunting on national forest and BLM land and the fact that other than in a visitor center or headquarters, I have had low single-digits of personal interactions IN TOTAL with any FS or BLM employee in the field, and never with any that are away from a vehicle.

One LE tapped on my window to check me out while I was sleeping in CO in 1998.

Same year, 1998, a very helpful FS worker stopped and helped me with a piece of radiator hose in northern CO when I broke down.

I honestly cant recall any other specifics but will presume there HAD to be some… right?

I have literally never even seen a FS employee on a trail, off a trail, while hunting or fishing, nor while at any camp. In any given year, I have barely have seen any staff even while driving the roads.

To be fair, I have also NEVER been checked by a State GW while in the field in the west, only ONCE at a highway checkpoint in WY. Although I did share a coffee and good discussion with an off duty WY GW who was camping at a campground in Unit 7. He warned me about staying Fri/Sat and likelihood of some local methheads using the campgrounds on the weekend, which I appreciated. LOL.

Thats…. over….27… years…. (week or ten days at a time). WY, CO, ID

I’ve had similar experience EXCEPT the weed spray crews. I see them all the time and they’ve been on top of things. Honestly do an amazing job. Especially when you consider the sheer volume of acres they have to cover.
Everything I’ve read says that fire and law enforcement employees weren’t subject to this firing. I’m not seeing anything about weed crews.

 

[Perlodid]

I’ve had similar experience EXCEPT the weed spray crews. I see them all the time and they’ve been on top of things. Honestly do an amazing job. Especially when you consider the sheer volume of acres they have to cover.
Everything I’ve read says that fire and law enforcement employees weren’t subject to this firing. I’m not seeing anything about weed crews.

A lot of the weed crews are mostly seasonals, and USFS already "suspended" 2025 seasonal hiring by September 2024. Most of the botany techs I know lost their job because of this, and this recent wave of probationary period firings probably got any of the people who recently transitioned to permanent status (USFS was trying to make more of those positions permanent as they cut down on seasonals)

USFS suspends seasonal hiring for 2025 fiscal year due to funding concerns

The U.S. Forest Service has suspended the hiring of all seasonal employees with the exception of firefighters for the 2025 fiscal year due to anticipated budget shortfalls in the coming year.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Pagosa]

I am concerned about what this means for our public lands and the often very dedicated people who protect and maintain them, but have definitely been reflecting on the past 27 years of western hunting on national forest and BLM land and the fact that other than in a visitor center or headquarters, I have had low single-digits of personal interactions IN TOTAL with any FS or BLM employee in the field, and never with any that are away from a vehicle.

One LE tapped on my window to check me out while I was sleeping in CO in 1998.

Same year, 1998, a very helpful FS worker stopped and helped me with a piece of radiator hose in northern CO when I broke down.

I honestly cant recall any other specifics but will presume there HAD to be some… right?

I have literally never even seen a FS employee on a trail, off a trail, while hunting or fishing, nor while at any camp. In any given year, I have barely have seen any staff even while driving the roads.

To be fair, I have also NEVER been checked by a State GW while in the field in the west, only ONCE at a highway checkpoint in WY. Although I did share a coffee and good discussion with an off duty WY GW who was camping at a campground in Unit 7. He warned me about staying Fri/Sat and likelihood of some local methheads using the campgrounds on the weekend, which I appreciated. LOL.

Thats…. over….27… years…. (week or ten days at a time). WY, CO, ID

Me neither. Ive ran into contractor campground host and two individuals taking surveys last year.

This is all those that dislike the layoffs and downsizing.

I feel bad for the folks that lost their job, but welcome to the private sector of "At Will" employment. Ive worked 26 years in construction and the energy field and had numerous projects get canceled due to funding, weather, permits, someone else got the contract, etc. The past four years haven't been the easiest on me and I work two part-time seasonal jobs, one 520 miles across the state/WY and carpentry in the winter months (@ 50).

I haven't really seen a lot of significant improvements on FS or BLM lands in 35 years in the west. Overgrazed, dying timber, unmitigated fires, fire/reclamation contractors getting tons of money. I personally see more work on weed control and fire activities from the DNRC than the FS/BLM. I don't see this as a funding problem but a lack of direction/vison and managing a budget.

I've personally heard from numerous govt employees crowing about their govt retirement. @BuzzH

We don't know how this will effect usage/maintenance of public lands or seriously delay resource development projects, EAs/EIS, but we have a uncontrolled national debt that has to be accounted. We can't continue to throw money away on studies, grants, or other subsides. I can't wait until DOGE goes into the DOD, and farm aid.

 

[sclancy27]

I feel really sorry for the Forest Service workers; again, not so much for Energy folks as they were likely going to build solar/wind farms.

The real problem is that there has been no oversight of government spending for decades, it really took off after Covid, and we're $37T in debt. Congress (think Rand Paul and Thomas Massie) demand data from agencies and never get it, or, if they do, they just pass the next omnibus bill anyway in a never-ending game of brinksmanship. And this is not a D vs R thing. Rs had the House and Johnson (and his predecessor) allowed the omnibus to go through anyway.

If you haven't read THE RIGHT STUFF, remedy that ASAP. There's a section called "The Lab Rats Revolt"; the astronauts had finally had enough of useless testing and wanted more control of the program. In the film, the confrontation took the form of "astronaut pilot" instead of "capsule occupant", steering options (which proved vital), and so on.

What DOGE is exposing is a similar stimulus, the lab rats are the taxpayers, and they're P*SSED. Throwing billions around (or, as the EPA guy said, throwing gold bars off the Titanic) while they're ever watchful of your $601 Venmo account.

And the juicy part is yet to come; how do people making $200K have net worths of $80+ million?

I think there are lots of voices for public lands and things will be OK in the medium run. For one thing, there's a big push to clean up the forests to limit fires; remember the .gov video about selective thinning and judicious use of fire?

Or maybe I'm just being optimistic; we'll see.

WTF are you talking about about, Congress passes the laws that forces agencies to do whatever.

It's like telling your kid to throw a rock thru a window, then punishing him for throwing a rock thru the window....

 

[sclancy27]

Me neither. Ive ran into contractor campground host and two individuals taking surveys last year.

This is all those that dislike the layoffs and downsizing.

I feel bad for the folks that lost their job, but welcome to the private sector of "At Will" employment. Ive worked 26 years in construction and the energy field and had numerous projects get canceled due to funding, weather, permits, someone else got the contract, etc. The past four years haven't been the easiest on me and I work two part-time seasonal jobs, one 520 miles across the state/WY and carpentry in the winter months (@ 50).

I haven't really seen a lot of significant improvements on FS or BLM lands in 35 years in the west. Overgrazed, dying timber, unmitigated fires, fire/reclamation contractors getting tons of money. I personally see more work on weed control and fire activities from the DNRC than the FS/BLM. I don't see this as a funding problem but a lack of direction/vison and managing a budget.

I've personally heard from numerous govt employees crowing about their govt retirement. @BuzzH

We don't know how this will effect usage/maintenance of public lands or seriously delay resource development projects, EAs/EIS, but we have a uncontrolled national debt that has to be accounted. We can't continue to throw money away on studies, grants, or other subsides. I can't wait until DOGE goes into the DOD, and farm aid.

Again, we should be blaming Congress for all the ills of "lack of management". They direct fed agency priorities.

And Lawyers, blame lawyers for not being able to harvest timber and 1000 other things. I can't remember the specific law (@Big Fin help)but repealing that would make it much less incentivizing to sue the govt over every little thing.

 

[SAJ-99]

WTF?

We have this letter on the wall at the national headquarters in D.C. I know a few people that should read it...just sayin'.

Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service | The American Presidency Project

www.presidency.ucsb.edu

You keep trying to play by the rules while the Admin shits all over them. But even if you went on strike it wouldn’t matter. The chaos is the point. This is the revenge tour. The purpose isn’t to save money, it’s to reallocate it to places that kiss the ring.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Again, we should be blaming Congress for all the ills of "lack of management". They direct fed agency priorities.

And Lawyers, blame lawyers for not being able to harvest timber and 1000 other things. I can't remember the specific law (@Big Fin help)but repealing that would make it much less incentivizing to sue the govt over every little thing.

Equal access to justice act. Comes from being reinbursed for your legal fees when suing the government.

Fresh Tracks Weekly - Reform the EAJA for wildlife

This is a topic that I've almost had to compartmentalize, given how much it raises my blood pressure. Marcus knows it gets me worked up and he convinced me to sit down and give some thoughts on how the Equal Access to Justice Act is being abused by environmental litigators (drive by litigators...

www.hunttalk.com

 

[Deleted member 56631]

I am concerned about what this means for our public lands and the often very dedicated people who protect and maintain them, but have definitely been reflecting on the past 27 years of western hunting on national forest and BLM land and the fact that other than in a visitor center or headquarters, I have had low single-digits of personal interactions IN TOTAL with any FS or BLM employee in the field, and never with any that are away from a vehicle.

One LE tapped on my window to check me out while I was sleeping in CO in 1998.

Same year, 1998, a very helpful FS worker stopped and helped me with a piece of radiator hose in northern CO when I broke down.

I honestly cant recall any other specifics but will presume there HAD to be some… right?

I have literally never even seen a FS employee on a trail, off a trail, while hunting or fishing, nor while at any camp. In any given year, I have barely have seen any staff even while driving the roads.

To be fair, I have also NEVER been checked by a State GW while in the field in the west, only ONCE at a highway checkpoint in WY. Although I did share a coffee and good discussion with an off duty WY GW who was camping at a campground in Unit 7. He warned me about staying Fri/Sat and likelihood of some local methheads using the campgrounds on the weekend, which I appreciated. LOL.

Thats…. over….27… years…. (week or ten days at a time). WY, CO, ID

Yeah it’s sad to see peoples jobs on the block but those Dinosaurs that inherited their position 30 years ago is who is to blame for ghost riding the ship.

Iv had similar limited experiences with Federal works on public lands. Much more interactions with state agencies.

For example look at the state agency ran public spaces vs the federal government in the state of Montana.

 

[El Jason]

Valentine’s Day massacre: Uncounted throng of Wyomingites fired by Trump administration - WyoFile

The government has yet to disclose how many lost their jobs, despite repeated inquiries. Many of those affected, however, shared their stories, and their fears for the agencies they once served.

wyofile.com

I works for the USFS in a timber crew for a while. Four of us were seasonal and there were three permanent employees IIRC. This was one of the hardest working crews I’ve been a part of. We got a lot of work done.

In my brief interactions with the other folks in the Ranger District, they all seems top to bottom very hard working folks who enjoyed and took pride in their work.

I’ve spoken to a fair number of USFS employees over the years. I’ve always found them professional, polite, and helpful.

To all the folks impacted, I wish you the best. The perpetual stereotypes of lazy workers, living off the dole, is IME completely untrue. I use USFS lands a lot, and I fear for what the future holds for them.

 

[Toofdoc]

Price’s Law:
Price’s law, also known as Price’s square root law, states that of the number of people involved in a project, the square root will be responsible for 50 percent of the results.

Holds true for both private and public organizations. It’s an equal opportunity thing.

Something to consider…

 

[BuzzH]

View attachment 360842Price’s Law:
Price’s law, also known as Price’s square root law, states that of the number of people involved in a project, the square root will be responsible for 50 percent of the results.


Something to consider…

That isn't a problem with the group I work with, we've never been fully staffed in the 25 years I've worked with them.

 

[Bonasababy]

If you signed the buyout contract, you waived the right to sue.

Right, but contracts go both ways.

 

[Bonasababy]

Me neither. Ive ran into contractor campground host and two individuals taking surveys last year.

This is all those that dislike the layoffs and downsizing.

I feel bad for the folks that lost their job, but welcome to the private sector of "At Will" employment. Ive worked 26 years in construction and the energy field and had numerous projects get canceled due to funding, weather, permits, someone else got the contract, etc. The past four years haven't been the easiest on me and I work two part-time seasonal jobs, one 520 miles across the state/WY and carpentry in the winter months (@ 50).

I haven't really seen a lot of significant improvements on FS or BLM lands in 35 years in the west. Overgrazed, dying timber, unmitigated fires, fire/reclamation contractors getting tons of money. I personally see more work on weed control and fire activities from the DNRC than the FS/BLM. I don't see this as a funding problem but a lack of direction/vison and managing a budget.

I've personally heard from numerous govt employees crowing about their govt retirement. @BuzzH

We don't know how this will effect usage/maintenance of public lands or seriously delay resource development projects, EAs/EIS, but we have a uncontrolled national debt that has to be accounted. We can't continue to throw money away on studies, grants, or other subsides. I can't wait until DOGE goes into the DOD, and farm aid.

What Trump is doing is not doing anything to make a dent in the national debt. And when he cuts taxes or even extends his last administrations cuts, he greatly ACCELERATES the growth of the national debt!

 

[marshman]

Well, this was an interesting 24 hour read! I Know there are a lot of diverse opinions in this community and every one is entitled to their opinion for sure.
I just really hope that our public lands and the wildlife that live on them do not suffer too badly while this mess is going on.
I also really feel for a lot of people being hurt real bad. People who are dedicated to these resources, good people doing good work for our country.
Not sure yet what the end game to all of this will be. But I do know that in about 18 months there will be another election and everyone will have another chance to correct the course.
That is how America rolls.

 

[SAJ-99]

View attachment 360842Price’s Law:
Price’s law, also known as Price’s square root law, states that of the number of people involved in a project, the square root will be responsible for 50 percent of the results.

Holds true for both private and public organizations. It’s an equal opportunity thing.

Something to consider…

I think you stopped reading when it told you what you wanted to hear. So firing them is going to suddenly make them competent? Or they just need proper motivation? The rabbit hole is much deeper than you ventured. And to be clear, in this case there has been no attempt to root out the incompetence.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Me neither. Ive ran into contractor campground host and two individuals taking surveys last year.

This is all those that dislike the layoffs and downsizing.

I feel bad for the folks that lost their job, but welcome to the private sector of "At Will" employment. Ive worked 26 years in construction and the energy field and had numerous projects get canceled due to funding, weather, permits, someone else got the contract, etc. The past four years haven't been the easiest on me and I work two part-time seasonal jobs, one 520 miles across the state/WY and carpentry in the winter months (@ 50).

I haven't really seen a lot of significant improvements on FS or BLM lands in 35 years in the west. Overgrazed, dying timber, unmitigated fires, fire/reclamation contractors getting tons of money. I personally see more work on weed control and fire activities from the DNRC than the FS/BLM. I don't see this as a funding problem but a lack of direction/vison and managing a budget.

I've personally heard from numerous govt employees crowing about their govt retirement. @BuzzH

We don't know how this will effect usage/maintenance of public lands or seriously delay resource development projects, EAs/EIS, but we have a uncontrolled national debt that has to be accounted. We can't continue to throw money away on studies, grants, or other subsides. I can't wait until DOGE goes into the DOD, and farm aid.

If you think fed land mgt agency employees are as good as anyplace to start cutting, your understanding of the problem and realistic solutions could use some improvement. Take a good hard look at the numbers in the link. As you do, ask yourself these questions... 1) how much has the federal executive branch grown since 1952, 2) where has most of the growth been in the past 30 years, and 3) under which administration were the numbers cut most. Be honest about the answers when you figure them out.

Executive Branch Civilian Employment Since 1940

Welcome to opm.gov

www.opm.gov

 

[brymoore]

View attachment 360842Price’s Law:
Price’s law, also known as Price’s square root law, states that of the number of people involved in a project, the square root will be responsible for 50 percent of the results.

Holds true for both private and public organizations. It’s an equal opportunity thing.

Something to consider…

I wonder if Price ever had a job besides academia.

My 30+ year of corporate life refutes Price’s model.

 

[geetar]

I had a friend and former coworker get the axe in the Chugach area. She got cut because she's a new hire but the reason she moved to Alaska from North Carolina is because her Army ranger husband was transferred there so she's not new to the field just this particular job. It's a complicated place to be in knowing I voted for the guy that appointed the people who cut her job but it's not as simple as me saying I regret my decision or I should have voted for the other side because I could have just as easily been friends with a pipeline worker 4 years ago that got cut on day one of Biden's presidency. As a previous post said I'd like to see more in the field jobs for young people. Heck I wish I had done something like packing mules or clearing trails at 18-21.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

I wonder if Price ever had a job besides academia.

My 30+ year of corporate life refutes Price’s model.

Even if it were true, there are massive corporations that get a complete 'pass' by most folks simply because they are privately owned and can carefully manage the information their customers and shareholders see. My brother worked for Boeing and BMW, among others, and the stories he had about waste and lazy employees rivaled anything that ever came out of a fox news anchor's mouth about federal workers. People are people anywhere they work. Lazy people will be lazy. Hard workers will work hard. It matters not the employer. What matters is how they were raised.