ID F&G Survey

[Steelhead]

Looks like longer waiting periods and auction tags are coming in the future...as long as it's not a point system!!!!!

 

[shootbrownelk]

It's a catch 22.

Bonus/Pref points will bring more money and revenue into Idaho, because on years as an NR when you do not plan to hunt it - you can still buy a license and buy points to improve your chances when you want to hunt it.

In a Lottery system with the tag fees up-front the draw odds are and will continue to be better. The current system is tailored towards residents, there is no guarantee that a non resident will draw a tag and the tags are limited to 10%.

I like the idea of a bonus point or bonus point squared system at least for non-residents like myself, but they would have to split the draws.

Splitting the draws would lead to less tags for resident hunters, since there is no guarantee that non-residents will draw a tag.

I wouldn't be against if they left the draw the same and went with bonus points or bonus point squared all around.

I kind of wish Wyoming would do it for resident Deer, Elk, and Pronghorn.

I kind of wish Wyoming would have preference points for Deer, Antelope and Elk. Non residents have a much better drawing odds on hard to get tags than residents do.. I'm with you on that Dude.

 

[Steelhead]

I kind of wish Wyoming would have preference points for Deer, Antelope and Elk. Non residents have a much better drawing odds on hard to get tags than residents do.. I'm with you on that Dude.

What?

 

[Steelhead]

1. How do THAT MANY people favor a point system??!!
2. How many times did "The Dude" take the survey??
3. Nevermind

 

[shootbrownelk]

This year I am hunting Idaho on the OTC tag.

Next year, I probably wont hunt Idaho.

If there was a point system, I would buy the $150 license, pay the $15 app fee, and pay a $20 point fee to increase my chances in the future for drawing moose.

If there is no point system, Idaho does not get the $185 dollars for someone who is not going to hunt there.

As far as a no points system,

Wyoming does not have one for residents.

Antelope Unit 92 15% chance of drawing

Deer Unit 102 4.3% chance of drawing

Elk Unit 100 2% chance of drawing

I know people that have gone 8-16 years between drawing antelope at 15% or so draw odds. A bonus point system would reward those who have applied with an additional chance each year, it is still no guarantee of drawing a tag - but it still rewards those who do not draw with something rather than nothing.

Agreed Dude.

 

[shootbrownelk]

What?

Reading is fundamental.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

What?

I will try to as an example

The antelope unit where I live there is around a 25% probability to draw every year. Not bad, depending on the luck of the draw.

A non resident can get the tag where I live every 6 years in the regular draw and every 5 in the special draw.

There is a good chance that a Non Resident could draw before a resident could draw in the unit that I live.

A couple people I work with have went 8 and 16 years between antelope draws and with a resident point system like the NR point system they could have hunted it multiple times in that period with the amount of tags that are given out. (~230 Tags - ~950 applicants)

This is the argument of having a points system versus a lottery system for Wyoming residents.

I have decided to look else where for prongs, because I do not like those probabilities when there are other units that I could drive to that have enough public land to hunt them.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

1. How do THAT MANY people favor a point system??!!
2. How many times did "The Dude" take the survey??
3. Nevermind

Only once.

I figure, I voiced my opinion as a non resident that hunted Idaho and others can voice their opinion the same way.

 

[Steelhead]

I will try to as an example

The antelope unit where I live there is around a 25% probability to draw every year. Not bad, depending on the luck of the draw.

A non resident can get the tag where I live every 6 years in the regular draw and every 5 in the special draw.

There is a good chance that a Non Resident could draw before a resident could draw in the unit that I live.

A couple people I work with have went 8 and 16 years between antelope draws and with a resident point system like the NR point system they could have hunted it multiple times in that period with the amount of tags that are given out. (~230 Tags - ~950 applicants)

This is the argument of having a points system versus a lottery system for Wyoming residents.

I have decided to look else where for prongs, because I do not like those probabilities when there are other units that I could drive to that have enough public land to hunt them.

I would reckon that with point creep (due to a point system)...I NR such as myself will only be able to draw a top elk hunt once, while residents will have a chance every year.

 

[BuzzH]

I will try to as an example

The antelope unit where I live there is around a 25% probability to draw every year. Not bad, depending on the luck of the draw.

A non resident can get the tag where I live every 6 years in the regular draw and every 5 in the special draw.

There is a good chance that a Non Resident could draw before a resident could draw in the unit that I live.

A couple people I work with have went 8 and 16 years between antelope draws and with a resident point system like the NR point system they could have hunted it multiple times in that period with the amount of tags that are given out. (~230 Tags - ~950 applicants)

This is the argument of having a points system versus a lottery system for Wyoming residents.

I have decided to look else where for prongs, because I do not like those probabilities when there are other units that I could drive to that have enough public land to hunt them.

I'll take 25% odd each year over a point system...I'll take 5% odds over a point system.

The point systems sound good in theory, but in 10 years, it will be the same chit show that it is for NR now.

Look at the number of NR applicants with max antelope points. I recall when the NR point scheme was implemented. I listened to testimony given that within 7-8 years the top point pools would be cleared.

There are about 28,000 NR's with 8-10 points. For the NR that is trying to hunt the best units, there is a long wait in front of them....and they likely wont live long enough to hunt the best areas once, let alone twice.

Once that reality started to set in, about 6 years into the draw, you started seeing units that were 50-60% odds each year under a random system start taking 3-5 points to draw. Now a NR applying for a mid-tier unit that he could draw every other year (or more) under a random system, is a twice a decade deal...best case.

The situation is even WORSE for elk and deer where even less tags are issued. The only thing that a point system assures, is that each applicant will hunt the unit they want, possibly ONCE in their lifetime...that's it. There is no chance at a second tag other than the handful of tags issued in the random portion of the draw.

Plus, like any point system, it creates a totally unfair situation for every single applicant except those that enter the system at the ground floor. Everyone else is at a severe disadvantage.

I don't feel sorry for any Wyoming Resident that bitches about not drawing a 58 antelope, 100 elk tag, and 128 mule deer permit. There's no way I'll ever support a point system to make people that don't understand draw odds happy.

Plus, when each resident can kill 2 buck antelope, 2 buck deer, 4 doe antelope, 2 cow elk, 1 bull elk, unlimited doe deer, bear and lion each and every year...they have nothing to complain about because they cant draw their unit of choice.

Find a different shoulder to cry on...the amount of opportunity afforded the Resident Wyoming Hunter is ridiculous.

Point systems suck...period.

 

[smarandr]

Point systems suck...period.

That there is damn near signature worthy.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

I would reckon that with point creep (due to a point system)...I NR such as myself will only be able to draw a top elk hunt once, while residents will have a chance every year.

It also doesn't hurt to only have around ~600,000 people residing in the state.

 

[quarterhorse]

Might as well say it like it is.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

I'll take 25% odd each year over a point system...I'll take 5% odds over a point system.

The point systems sound good in theory, but in 10 years, it will be the same chit show that it is for NR now.

Look at the number of NR applicants with max antelope points. I recall when the NR point scheme was implemented. I listened to testimony given that within 7-8 years the top point pools would be cleared.

There are about 28,000 NR's with 8-10 points. For the NR that is trying to hunt the best units, there is a long wait in front of them....and they likely wont live long enough to hunt the best areas once, let alone twice.

Once that reality started to set in, about 6 years into the draw, you started seeing units that were 50-60% odds each year under a random system start taking 3-5 points to draw. Now a NR applying for a mid-tier unit that he could draw every other year (or more) under a random system, is a twice a decade deal...best case.

The situation is even WORSE for elk and deer where even less tags are issued. The only thing that a point system assures, is that each applicant will hunt the unit they want, possibly ONCE in their lifetime...that's it. There is no chance at a second tag other than the handful of tags issued in the random portion of the draw.

Plus, like any point system, it creates a totally unfair situation for every single applicant except those that enter the system at the ground floor. Everyone else is at a severe disadvantage.

I don't feel sorry for any Wyoming Resident that bitches about not drawing a 58 antelope, 100 elk tag, and 128 mule deer permit. There's no way I'll ever support a point system to make people that don't understand draw odds happy.

Plus, when each resident can kill 2 buck antelope, 2 buck deer, 4 doe antelope, 2 cow elk, 1 bull elk, unlimited doe deer, bear and lion each and every year...they have nothing to complain about because they cant draw their unit of choice.

Find a different shoulder to cry on...the amount of opportunity afforded the Resident Wyoming Hunter is ridiculous.

Point systems suck...period.

Life must be hard east of the continental divide.

I do agree with a lot of what you said.

I will point out there are 318,260, 000 Non Residents of Wyoming in the US that could be vying for ~10% of the tags and 600,000 residents that could be vying for 90% of the tags.

The point creep would not be as bad on the resident side of things, because of the low population.

I have no problem with a points system or a lottery for residents. I will find a way to make the system work for me.

I was just pointing out the argument that could be made for a points system in Wyoming.

Back to Idaho, as a NR I would love a points system - Though it's not as big of deal to me as it is to residents. I placed my vote and was out-voted. It happens. I'm not bitter, sad, mad, or happy, I'm just indifferent. As long as Idaho continues to have options for OTC and I don't have any better plans, I will take a shot at moose or elk and hunt OTC on years I am able to do so.

 

[BuzzH]

Life must be hard east of the continental divide.

I do agree with a lot of what you said.

I will point out there are 318,260, 000 Non Residents of Wyoming in the US that could be vying for ~10% of the tags and 600,000 residents that could be vying for 90% of the tags.

The point creep would not be as bad on the resident side of things, because of the low population.

I have no problem with a points system or a lottery for residents. I will find a way to make the system work for me.

I was just pointing out the argument that could be made for a points system in Wyoming.

I will point out that you better get your facts straight before you make an argument for point systems in Wyoming.

Wyoming Residents do NOT receive 90% of the elk, deer, pronghorn, sheep, moose, goat, or bison tags.

In fact, NR's receive more than 50% of the available pronghorn tags in Wyoming, 18% of the LQ elk tags, 20% of moose tags, 25% of sheep tags, etc.

Yes, the point creep would be just as bad on the Resident side of things...go look at the moose and sheep situation.

It was stated at the time of preference points, that the reason for NOT going to a once-in-a-lifetime draw for moose and sheep, was because Residents would cycle through moose and sheep and there wouldn't be enough applicants. Yeah...20 years later and I'm not seeing where that is ever going to be a problem.

Point creep will be the same with the Residents...saying it wont be "as bad" is about like asking which of your hands you'd like chopped off.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Dude---You better listen closely to what BuzzH is saying because as a NR that hunts Wyoming every year I agree with him on this 100% and when that's the case you dang well know he's correct! Did I just say that, LOL?

 

[TheDudeAbides]

I will point out that you better get your facts straight before you make an argument for point systems in Wyoming.

Wyoming Residents do NOT receive 90% of the elk, deer, pronghorn, sheep, moose, goat, or bison tags.

In fact, NR's receive more than 50% of the available pronghorn tags in Wyoming, 18% of the LQ elk tags, 20% of moose tags, 25% of sheep tags, etc.

Yes, the point creep would be just as bad on the Resident side of things...go look at the moose and sheep situation.

It was stated at the time of preference points, that the reason for NOT going to a once-in-a-lifetime draw for moose and sheep, was because Residents would cycle through moose and sheep and there wouldn't be enough applicants. Yeah...20 years later and I'm not seeing where that is ever going to be a problem.

Point creep will be the same with the Residents...saying it wont be "as bad" is about like asking which of your hands you'd like chopped off.

Point creep would be bad in deer, premiere pronghorn and premiere elk units. Pronghorn, however would probably work out unless the population took a nose dive. Units between the Wyoming and Wind River range would be 3-4 year draws, rather than just getting lucky.

Spot Checking the pronghorn unit I mentioned earlier Resident 235 tags, Non Resident 34 Non Resident Special 23. 292 tags

235 Resident = ~ 80%

57 Non Resident = ~ 20%

It's not a 90/10 split or a 50/50 split. We are both wrong on that one.

Does your 50% number include antelope doe tags, second choice, and leftovers?

Haha you can't use sheep and Shiras moose to defend a lottery system. There is way too much demand for the availability of tags.

Unit 26 moose as an example 40 resident tags for 900 applicants is 4% probability, which is only 3% higher than the current 75/25 system provides with 10 tags in the lottery.

Bison and Rocky Mountain Goat are a lottery and other than Cow Bison those odds are terrible. I wouldn't use them to defend a point system anymore than I would use Shiras moose or sheep to defend a lottery system.

I have no quarrels with either system. There are advantages and disadvantages with each type of system that distributes tags. It's all about playing the game either way.

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Dude---You better listen closely to what BuzzH is saying because as a NR that hunts Wyoming every year I agree with him on this 100% and when that's the case you dang well know he's correct! Did I just say that, LOL?

I believe that you did just say that. Was it you that had a big disagreement with Buzz on another thread?

Maybe it is just a Western Wyoming philosophy vs Eastern Wyoming philosophy.

Fun Fact: People don't die and go to hell. They die and go to Rawlins and are forced to live out eternity there.

I see antelope every day on the way to work and I know there is a few frustrated people that can't pull a tag to hunt antelope close to their home.

With the lottery, I'm not going to play that game. I'm going to find a unit with 100% draw odds and make a plan and hunt. With a points system I would play the game different, but still find a way to hunt if I could.

Buzz seems like a cool cat that does a lot for hunters in Wyoming and a lot of what he says does have merit. I just can't agree with totally shunning point systems, because they do serve a purpose and each state has the liberty to go what it believes is best.
Wyoming can have a lottery or a points system for residents. I will play the game either way.

 

[6speed]

About friggin time they posted the results of the survey!!

The Legislature convenes next week. I would imagine that was the deadline for getting this out.

 

[choc dogs]

Can we require that math is taught in public schools?