I can't believe they can't fill these positions!

[LuketheDog]

Lol, I give up. You all can continue to bash this job posting. I salute the individuals that have enough work ethic (or I guess from mosts perspective on here are desperate or dumb enough?) to apply for this peasantry position.

I'd love to do it, my job has tanked along with the real estate market here and I'm open to a career change. However, at this point in my life I'm not going to give up all my weekends and holidays, time with my kids, or choice of location to live and work for ~$50K. No way.

 

[4ohSick]

There is a warden union in MT

I stand corrected. Thanks for your insight! I'm surprised they haven't been able to collectively force the state's hand more than they have, especially with so many unfilled positions.

I'd disagree. Quality of life also means knowing your retirement is going to be taken care of. Public Service jobs are some of the few left that offer pensions for retirees. That's a massive selling point in terms of getting quality professionals to sign up to serve in Gov't. So is the healthcare package. Most folks moving into service, or wanting to, are thinking about those issues as well.

@WanderWoman nailed it in both posts. Reducing requirements means reducing quality. Pay them more. Wages are not competitive any where in state gov't. In MT, as elsewhere, you have appropriators who are more interested in reducing gov't spending at all costs rather than investing wisely in small gov't. The Warden's Union also serves the Highway Patrol troopers & Prison guards as well, IIRC.

When you compare FWP's vacancies to other states or even other agencies within MT, their troubles are not singular.

Legislators need to make these jobs competitive again.

I kinda disagree with the pension being such a huge selling point (as a MT state worker who selected defined contribution over defined benefit). The pension system in MT has repeatedly been adjusted to provide lower benefits to maintain solvency, and if you spend your entire career underpaid (relative to comparable private-sector jobs) and your retirement wage is based upon your wage for the last 3 years of service, then your fixed income in retirement is going to be underwhelming, even if the cost-of-living adjustments are more generous than the legislature grants active employees. The states defined contribution match is quite generous compared to most private companies, so I'd rather take my chance with the market than count on the current trajectory of Montana politics reversing to valuing public employees more instead of less.

 

[SAJ-99]

I'd disagree. Quality of life also means knowing your retirement is going to be taken care of. Public Service jobs are some of the few left that offer pensions for retirees. That's a massive selling point in terms of getting quality professionals to sign up to serve in Gov't. So is the healthcare package. Most folks moving into service, or wanting to, are thinking about those issues as well.

My comment was tongue in cheek, but I think we are on the same wave length. Quality of life absolutely does matter. We just know that people are bad about planning for the long-term future. Some do, most don't. I have seen estimates that public-sector pay is on par with private sector when you add in all the benefits (non-cash comp). I think people in their early 20's have a tough time looking at the salary and doing the math when the biggest benefit is 30yrs out into the future. Cash compensation needs to increase. But again, I direct you to the MT property tax thread.

Legislators need to make these jobs competitive again.

I got a chuckle out of thinking about this one.

 

[WanderWoman]

My comment was tongue in cheek, but I think we are on the same wave length. Quality of life absolutely does matter. We just know that people are bad about planning for the long-term future. Some do, most don't. I have seen estimates that public-sector pay is on par with private sector when you add in all the benefits (non-cash comp). I think people in their early 20's have a tough time looking at the salary and doing the math when the biggest benefit is 30yrs out into the future. Cash compensation needs to increase. But again, I direct you to the MT property tax thread.


I got a chuckle out of thinking about this one.

It’s really hard for someone living paycheck to paycheck to even think about planning for the future.

Maybe pay is comparable in jobs with comparable hours, but another thing to consider is that most wardens work WAY over 40 hrs/week and overtime/comp is capped. That reduces hourly wage in a sense even further, and with unpredictable hours/call outs, it’s hard for many of them to take a 2nd job.

Another post or few also talked about moving often. That might help someone personally but building relationships and making reliable contacts in an area takes time. Agencies should be doing everything they can to have field staff stay in an area, at least for a while, so these relationships can develop.

 

[Gus Chiggins]

I have seen estimates that public-sector pay is on par with private sector when you add in all the benefits (non-cash comp).

Like this one from the CBO (2017 report, based on on data up to 2015):

Comparing the Compensation of Federal and Private-Sector Employees, 2011 to 2015

During the 2011-2015 period, the difference between the wages, benefits, and total compensation of federal civilian employees and those of similar private-sector employees varied widely depending on the employees’ educational attainment.

www.cbo.gov

Perhaps things have changed from 2015 or so.

Latest jobs reports shows government added more jobs to their payroll. Would also be interesting to know how many of these unfilled positions are "necessary" -- i.e., if the work is getting done without those positions filled, or if they're "new" positions for new agency programs, etc.

 

[4ohSick]

I have seen estimates that public-sector pay is on par with private sector when you add in all the benefits (non-cash comp).

Over the long term that could be the case, but I think the last few years has turned it on its head (in MT at least) and I have little confidence it will correct. I just approved an invoice for a consultant PM making $84/hr - I work with him regularly, guy in his 40's that has a lot of responsibility but also takes plenty of vacation and rarely works over 50hrs in a week. My boss's boss is an expert in his field, has 30+ years of engineering experience, and sits on several national committees, and he makes $47/hr with the state. There have to be a lot of intangibles to make up that difference. When a mid-level project manager is making almost $20/hr more than the governor-appointed director, I don't see us catching up any time soon.

Sidenote - the boss is about to retire and go to a consultant, so we'll still have his expertise but instead of paying him even $80/hr working here, we'll be paying his new billable rate of which will be somewhere between $175 and $200/hr.

 

[Sytes]

If I was a Chief / Chapter President within MT State LEO Union - and specific to FWP for sake of this thread:
For sake of our FWP Warden employee wellbeing, maybe incentives that offset some the loss and encourage alternative value?

Incentives:
Acre per year of State land for 20+ years on the job, upon retirement.
State paid "In State" tuition per year over the course of 20 years.
Dependant(s) tuition paid in full - MSU / UM.
Exempt State tax.

As an aside, create a "Recreation Stamp" for Residents and Non Residents to utilize any State and Federal land that requires the administrative and LEO boots on the ground, inclusive within hunt/fish license. Use revenue generated to support salaries.

This is not the versed doctrine ready to run to assembly of our State, "Representatives" - a shadow of a bare breakdown... the spark of an idea.

It is not the critic who counts... - Theodore Roosevelt.

 

[YukonGold]

Incentives:
Acre per year of State land for 20+ years on the job, upon retirement.

Are you suggesting the state give public land into private ownership as a work incentive?

Also there should be an increase in revenue to FWP due to the new law requiring recreational users of Fishing Access Sites and Wildlife Management Areas to purchase a conservation license. Not sure how well that is being enforced, or where that money's supposed to go, but I'd love for it to go toward increased pay for wardens.

Also...unions are only so beneficial when the head honchos refuse to give anything and the only alternative is striking -- in which the thing that suffers most is the resource. I also believe there is a state law prohibiting LEOs from going on strike.

 

[Sytes]

Are you suggesting the state give public land into private ownership as a work incentive?

Yes.

 

[YukonGold]

Yes.

I'm all for incentives and pay bumps for wardens, but I can't support that. And I doubt wardens (or the DNRC) would either. Would be a huge loss to public access and school funding.

 

[Sytes]

I also believe there is a state law prohibiting LEOs from going on strike.

This applies federally as well. As LEOs, we may not strike however FLRA is a quality to offset the value of "Striking". Our federal unions, NTEU and AFGE are two of the strongest and hold coveted Collective Bargaining Agreements.

It can be done w/o striking.

 

[rjthehunter]

Dang, they're struggling to find people who enjoy the outdoors but have to work 24/7 so they can't enjoy it themselves?!

Well no shit!

 

[Sytes]

I'm all for incentives and pay bumps for wardens, but I can't support that. And I doubt wardens (or the DNRC) would either. Would be a huge loss to public access and school funding.

I hear you. It is a stir and would need to be reviewed/evaluated to see if it would hold water. As with all grieved resolutions.

 

[BuzzH]

Like this one from the CBO (2017 report, based on on data up to 2015):

View attachment 305204

Comparing the Compensation of Federal and Private-Sector Employees, 2011 to 2015

During the 2011-2015 period, the difference between the wages, benefits, and total compensation of federal civilian employees and those of similar private-sector employees varied widely depending on the employees’ educational attainment.

www.cbo.gov

Perhaps things have changed from 2015 or so.

Latest jobs reports shows government added more jobs to their payroll. Would also be interesting to know how many of these unfilled positions are "necessary" -- i.e., if the work is getting done without those positions filled, or if they're "new" positions for new agency programs, etc.

In our case, its unfilled positions and the workload has increased due to staffing shortfalls. Doing more with less has a breaking point when it comes to staffing.

The unfilled positions are necessary since we work under the RPA and mandates from congress to provide reporting for forest health. We also have a huge amount of demand from NGO's, Universities, Private Sector, etc. for our data and the program has been around for over 70 years.

 

[SAJ-99]

Acre per year of State land for 20+ years on the job, upon retirement.

Hard no, if I were a MT resident. State would run out of land in about 30yrs and once gone, you never get it back.

 

[BuzzH]

If I was a Chief / Chapter President within MT State LEO Union - and specific to FWP for sake of this thread:
For sake of our FWP Warden employee wellbeing, maybe incentives that offset some the loss and encourage alternative value?

Incentives:
Acre per year of State land for 20+ years on the job, upon retirement.
State paid "In State" tuition per year over the course of 20 years.
Dependant(s) tuition paid in full - MSU / UM.
Exempt State tax.

As an aside, create a "Recreation Stamp" for Residents and Non Residents to utilize any State and Federal land that requires the administrative and LEO boots on the ground, inclusive within hunt/fish license. Use revenue generated to support salaries.

This is not the versed doctrine ready to run to assembly of our State, "Representatives" - a shadow of a bare breakdown... the spark of an idea.

It is not the critic who counts... - Theodore Roosevelt.

I could get on board with your items 2,3...not the first and not the last.

I do appreciate the thinking outside the box though if raising pay isn't an option.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I'm not sure the idea of giving wardens some state land passes the constitutional muster of ensuring the maximum return to the trust. A large number of wardens get their housing provided, or a stipend for housing as well as their salary, iirc.

The last couple of budgets had big line items for new warden housing as well as newer equipment.

 

[Westelker - W. Colorado]

Is it me or is this job posting not the most encouraging? I'd probably re-word this if they actually want to hire anyone.

It made me smile.

HELENA – Do you like to be in the Montana outdoors working with hunters, anglers and boaters? Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks is seeking applicants to fill nine game warden positions.

“It’s one of those jobs where It’s not even a job,” said Region 6 Sergeant FWP Game Warden Andy Matakis. “It’s a way of life. It’s being that person in your community that people can rely on. No two days in this job are the same.”

To watch Matakis at work, click here.

To become a game warden in Montana, applicants must successfully complete the Montana Law Enforcement Academy Basic Course or have equivalent training.

Typically, a game warden is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week to support field staff, respond to the public and address wildlife issues. Job demands are heaviest during weekends and holidays.

Wardens must be in excellent physical health. The position requires frequent climbing, bending, pushing, pulling, dragging and lifting. Duties include working with sick or injured wildlife; removing illegal kills; trapping and relocating animals; backpacking; horseback patrols; and operating boats, snowmobiles and OHVs. Good communication skills are also necessary as use of force incidents can occur. Wardens must be in excellent mental condition as they must deal with all types of personalities and stress levels.

Game wardens can experience potentially dangerous interactions with criminals while enforcing the law and can be subject to assault and encounter hazardous substances. Because of these potential situations, good communication skills and strong mental health are necessary.

“I like to say you earn your badge every day,” Matakis said. “It’s not something I take lightly.”

Women and minorities are under-represented in this job category and are strongly encouraged to apply. Successful applicants will be subject to a full background investigation.

For more information, go to fwp.mt.gov/aboutfwp/enforcement/warden-hiring. To apply, click here. Applications will be accepted through Jan. 1, 2024.

It's NOT you. This is a terrible job description. Extremely distressing and negative. It should be immediately pulled and written by a professional job placement person.

 

[WanderWoman]

I'm not sure the idea of giving wardens some state land passes the constitutional muster of ensuring the maximum return to the trust. A large number of wardens get their housing provided, or a stipend for housing as well as their salary, iirc.

The last couple of budgets had big line items for new warden housing as well as newer equipment.

You’re talking about states other than MT, right? I’m not aware of any FWP employee housing outside of maybe the fish hatcheries.

 

[Deleted member 52098]

i make a pretty respectable wage sitting in a chair and mostly just dickin around in excel every day.

i spend a lot of time thinking about how many other things i'd be much happier doing for much less money.

and i'm not yet discounting them.

My wife talks me off the "many other things i'd be much happier doing for much less money" ledge constantly and reminds me of the "free time" I have with my current job. Doesn't mean I don't dream of having less stress and responsibility ha