Frank Church Wilderness to allow chain saws......

[Gellar]

Worked at Whataburger in high-school. About twice a week my very nice yet morbidly obese vice principal would come in get a triple meat triple cheeseburger with a large fry and diet coke. It's like going 70mph towards a ledge and hitting the breaks 6 feet away. At that point just send it full tilt man.

you know you’ve had a good bite to eat when you feel your arteries contract with each bite.

 

[Gellar]

No funding. They look for volunteers and IMO, that's a bad precedent to set.

Its asking a lot for Backcountry Horsemen, etc. to do that kind of work. They're volunteers, not hired staff.

People don’t understand that having volunteers often requires full time positions to dedicate their full time to that volunteer mission from finding qualified volunteers to training to be compliant on equipment for your org, to supervising and finally fixing their #*^@#* ups. Volunteers look good on paper.

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

I'm not convinced we even need trails in wilderness areas.

 

[BuzzH]

I'm not convinced we even need trails in wilderness areas.

For the little ones around here, definitely not.

Bob, Frank, SB, etc...different breed of cat.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I'm not convinced we even need trails in wilderness areas.

Counterpoint:

We have small wilderness areas inside the National Lakeshore which go through swamps, sensitive habitats, etc. The trails in there help ensure the biotic community's resilience. In a lot of areas, trails are about keeping people off of sensitive areas so they don't get pummeled with erosion, off-trail pioneering, etc.

Human impact in Wilderness exists, regardless of the notion of it being untrammeled. If you don't manage that impact you are not managing for the wild characteristics you want to keep.

 

[Bighorner]

No funding. They look for volunteers and IMO, that's a bad precedent to set.

Its asking a lot for Backcountry Horsemen, etc. to do that kind of work. They're volunteers, not hired staff.

Are familiar with the volunteer group working in the Bob or any insight into how that group is working out?

Volunteer Adventures — Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation

www.bmwf.org

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I'm not convinced we even need trails in wilderness areas.

We need them so people on HT can argue over how to maintain them.

 

[Elktrack]

Counterpoint:

We have small wilderness areas inside the National Lakeshore which go through swamps, sensitive habitats, etc. The trails in there help ensure the biotic community's resilience. In a lot of areas, trails are about keeping people off of sensitive areas so they don't get pummeled with erosion, off-trail pioneering, etc.

Human impact in Wilderness exists, regardless of the notion of it being untrammeled. If you don't manage that impact you are not managing for the wild characteristics you want to keep.

Interesting. You mean if the designated trail systems were to become unusable you’d want to make sure they were made useable to avoid creation of alternate trails through vulnerable habitat??? Weird. Sounds similar to an effort currently underway in another area.
But I forgot, you’re dead set against it since I might mean temporary use of efficient equipment.
You’re making the same exact argument that the chainsaw folks are.

 

[338win]

Meh, with the problems at hand now, chainsaws are the least of our public land problems.

 

[F250]

That's akin to saying "I'm trying to lose weight so I am giving up eating apples at 30 calories a piece", instead of maybe cutting back on the 2 pizzas you eat....

Not really. just fiscal management with limited available funds. Spend it wisely . Get the biggest bang for your buck.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Interesting. You mean if the designated trail systems were to become unusable you’d want to make sure they were made useable to avoid creation of alternate trails through vulnerable habitat??? Weird. Sounds similar to an effort currently underway in another area.
But I forgot, you’re dead set against it since I might mean temporary use of efficient equipment.
You’re making the same exact argument that the chainsaw folks are.

Yeah, no.

I'm responding to the notion that we shouldn't have any trails in wilderness.

 

[Ben Long]

I feel for both sides. The blowdowns this year are stunning. But I also understand the problem of slippery slopes and politicians who like shortcuts. Chainsaws this year. What is next? Not long ago, I was backpacking in a "wilderness" park in Canada. Arrived at an alpine valley to see blue diesel smoke rising from a patch of subalpine fir, followed by the purr of an engine. Parks Canada had helicoptered in an excavator to do trailwork. Of course, Parks Canada also builds towns and ski resorts in their national parks. IF we had the funding and the political will we could clear those trails with traditional tools, just like we built them. But the political will seems to be pushing the opposite way.

 

[BuzzH]

I feel for both sides. The blowdowns this year are stunning. But I also understand the problem of slippery slopes and politicians who like shortcuts. Chainsaws this year. What is next? Not long ago, I was backpacking in a "wilderness" park in Canada. Arrived at an alpine valley to see blue diesel smoke rising from a patch of subalpine fir, followed by the purr of an engine. Parks Canada had helicoptered in an excavator to do trailwork. Of course, Parks Canada also builds towns and ski resorts in their national parks. IF we had the funding and the political will we could clear those trails with traditional tools, just like we built them. But the political will seems to be pushing the opposite way.

Its the exact thing as "just selling a few hundred acres of public land for affordable housing"...it never stops.

Same as allowing chainsaws in wilderness areas, "just to get caught up"...turns into an every year deal followed by using ATVs and motor bikes instead of walking/horses.

Compromise 4 times you're left with 6 1/4% of what you started with.

 

[Ben Long]

I always get very nervous when people with power want to get away with something "because it's an emergency." Generally, the "emergency" is either imaginary or entirely of their making.

 

[Ben Long]

Are familiar with the volunteer group working in the Bob or any insight into how that group is working out?

Volunteer Adventures — Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation

www.bmwf.org

I am very familiar with the Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation. I've not worked with them in the field but I have worked with them in their strategies and know their people. They are great people who do wonderful work, as are the outfitters who clear many of the trails in the Bob. They are force multipliers. However, they can never entirely replace the agency crews. Remember, in the deep backcountry, the actual swinging of tools to clear trails is a small portion of the work. The lion's share is logistics and support. Getting trained, skilled people back there, feeding them, keeping them safe, working together over a big landscape. That's the part the agency needs to be taking the lead on. Its like my local neighborhood watch. IT's great. I support it. But I still need the city police to do its job.

 

[mtmuley]

Ientirely of their making.

Yeah. It is. Now playing catch up from decades of mismanagement. mtmuley

 

[Gellar]

We need them so people on HT can argue over how to maintain them.

5 pages and 96 comments, it’s still a friendly discussion. Page 6 is when it goes to an argument.

 

[mtmuley]

5 pages and 96 comments, it’s still a friendly discussion. Page 6 is when it goes to an argument.

Unless it's, well you know, Montana mule deer. mtmuley

 

[Straight Arrow]

I am very familiar with the Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation. I've not worked with them in the field but I have worked with them in their strategies and know their people. They are great people who do wonderful work, as are the outfitters who clear many of the trails in the Bob. They are force multipliers. However, they can never entirely replace the agency crews. Remember, in the deep backcountry, the actual swinging of tools to clear trails is a small portion of the work. The lion's share is logistics and support. Getting trained, skilled people back there, feeding them, keeping them safe, working together over a big landscape. That's the part the agency needs to be taking the lead on. Its like my local neighborhood watch. IT's great. I support it. But I still need the city police to do its job.

Having worked on a trail crew as a volunteer for the Bob Marshall Wilderness Foundation, I echo Ben's recognition of the USFS crews who provide the logistical support system for the projects, hauling the tools, food, and other equipment needed to complete the work, as well as planning and prioritizing tasks.

 

[Irrelevant]

Meh, with the problems at hand now, chainsaws are the least of our public land problems.

Yes, I agree. Just wait until the mountain bikers ask why the can't ride when you're allowing actual chainsaws...