Floating an idea, don't kill the messenger

[SAJ-99]

then is farming just another over subsidized business nationwide?

Yes.

Perhaps we should be importing meat from other countries to balance things out a bit since its so hard for these poor farmers to turn a profit.

Argentina has entered the chat.

It appears you are a pretty normal American. You want the best stuff but don't want to pay for it.

 

[Mallardsx2]

With the current federal system tax payers are footing the bill instead of the consumer. Shouldn’t the consumer be the one financially responsible for what they consume?

Also a solid point for sure!

 

[Mallardsx2]

Yes.


Argentina has entered the chat.

It appears you are a pretty normal American. You want the best stuff but don't want to pay for it.

The importing the meat thing was a joke. DICK.

 

[44hunter45]

I worked with the USFS, local water district, and several non-profits on how to upgrade or even just maintain a popular river section south of Denver. A few decades ago, it was basically only accessed by fishermen, but now it is popular with hikers, dog-walkers, picnickers, etc. The parking lot holds maybe 20 cars and then people start parking every damn place along the narrow dirt USFS road. People and their dogs shit everywhere, erosion is out of control, etc, etc. I asked the USFS employees if they could institute a fee to help pay for expansion/maintenance of the parking lot, bathrooms, bridges, trails, etc and their response was "No, it's too much of an administrative hassle." It's not just coming up with an access/permit/fee system and enforcing it, but even getting approval from higher headquarters. Now, there are places like Sedona, AZ that have a system of pay-to-use parking lots, trailheads, etc on federal public land that I think works well (from my perspective the fees are reasonable and the facilities are well-maintained at appropriate levels, ie nothing extravagant). So, I like the Sedona model, but I kind of understand the hurdles to get there - ie the inertia of a federal land manager that is used to a mostly hands-off model.

Funny you point out Sedona. You can't get a parking space there for love or money.

 

[44hunter45]

The importing the meat thing was a joke. DICK.

"Dick" is only one of the words I use when I see those imported stickers on meat at Safeway/Albertson's

 

[2rocky]

Since all entrants to National Park and USFWS managed lands pay access fees, I wonder about the idea that USFS and BLM institute a permit or stamp based system for access to their lands. Would hunters pay $10-$25 per year for a USFS or BLM access stamp? Could PR and DJ payer somehow be exempted. (In Idaho, hunting license holders are free to access IDL managed lands.)

Many if us pay for access to State or Corporate lands. Would there be social acceptance of a permit system for Federal lands access?

Enforcement cost would outweigh the benefit. National parks and refuges have controlled access points and a large target population. They also do not have a mandate to offer opportunity for all.

Isn't there a benefit to society to having close access to wild lands? Otherwise would people still want to live in cities and towns where they can see into their neighbor's windows? At least if there is a trailhead 10 miles anyway they can go after work and be in nature and not feel confined.... A population who is well exercised, and healthy because of time outdoors has less crime and conflict than a purely urban culture.

 

[44hunter45]

If people feel the cattle industry is only able to turn a profit by having low grazing fees (which the govt controls) then is farming just another over subsidized business nationwide?

Interesting to run two Google searches:
"Is US agriculture sustainable with subsidies?"
"Is US agriculture sustainable without subsidies?"

Both searches say no, for different reasons.

 

[44hunter45]

Enforcement cost would outweigh the benefit. National parks and refuges have controlled access points and a large target population. They also do not have a mandate to offer opportunity for all.

Isn't there a benefit to society to having close access to wild lands? Otherwise would people still want to live in cities and towns where they can see into their neighbor's windows? At least if there is a trailhead 10 miles anyway they can go after work and be in nature and not feel confined.... A population who is well exercised, and healthy because of time outdoors has less crime and conflict than a purely urban culture.

I tend to agree that enforcement may outweigh the benefit. It is a given that compliance would suck. But isn't any compliance better than nothing? How many of us have been checked for our Duck Stamp on USFWS refuges? I never have. I sometimes forget to buy my stamp until I'm actually in the refuge. Can't buy it at the gate, if there even is gate. I'd have to go to a P.O. to get one quickly. The closest USFWS refuge is hours from me, but I buy the stamp for the sake of wildlife. I used it all the time when I was on the road for work. There are rarely gates or kiosks at USFWS sites, but we buy the stamps.

There is great benefit in having open access to public recreation. But too many recreators that I see are not walking or even biking. Their fat asses are driving around USFS roads, around gates, and chewing up trails with dirt bikes and OHV. They are squatting at turnouts and leaving trash everywhere. They are disturbing vulnerable wintering wildlife with snow machines. They are shooting up trees and signage. USFS and BLM recreation users are often the worst our society has to offer.

What I am crowdthinking here is a source of funding for land managers not dependent on the Russ Fulchers in Congress. Consider this thread an Agile Scrum. Don't just say no, throw out some other idea.

 

[brymoore]

Interesting to run two Google searches:
"Is US agriculture sustainable with subsidies?"
"Is US agriculture sustainable without subsidies?"

Both searches say no, for different reasons.

U.S. government should follow the NZ model of no ag subsidies.

 

[BuzzH]

I feel your assumption and my assumption are both fair points......without seeing the numbers we don't know for sure what producers are making in the term of profits.
If people feel the cattle industry is only able to turn a profit by having low grazing fees (which the govt controls) then is farming just another over subsidized business nationwide? Perhaps we should be importing meat from other countries to balance things out a bit since its so hard for these poor farmers to turn a profit. It worked for industry right.....!? That's a can of worms for sure.

To what I was originally alluding to, I am not in favor of more fees and more licenses and more permits. I don't like any of it because almost all of it its just passthrough costs that can be grounded back to some ridiculous law.

If you dont buy the product you dont pay anything.

I shoot and dine on elk, I dont care what they do with cattle or what fees get passed to whom.

 

[mdhunter]

Based on the national debt, there are a lot more people taking than paying.

 

[CowboyLeroy]

He who pays the fiddler calls the tune. It helps that we are the ones paying the fiddler.

I took enjoy having the seat at the head of the table

 

[Hunting Wife]

I feel your assumption and my assumption are both fair points......without seeing the numbers we don't know for sure what producers are making in the term of profits.
If people feel the cattle industry is only able to turn a profit by having low grazing fees (which the govt controls) then is farming just another over subsidized business nationwide?

Idk about farming, but I work with grazers daily, and I’m not bound by the Taylor Grazing Act. Private leases, and my rental rates, are 15-20 times the going rate on BLM. I’m charging $26.00/pair this year and none of my cooperators is batting an eye. $1.35 or whatever it is is criminal, and a fleecing of America. They have plenty of wiggle room in between those numbers.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Texas had a non-game stamp for a while.

Read those last three words again.

 

[grizzly63]

WRONG.

Its you and me. WE/US as consumers will pay for these increased fees. The people who buy products.
Every fee and license is nothing more than a passthrough cost to the consumer.

EVERY.
SINGLE.
PENNY.

is that kind of like a tariff?

 

[Gellar]

Idk about farming, but I work with grazers daily, and I’m not bound by the Taylor Grazing Act. Private leases, and my rental rates, are 15-20 times the going rate on BLM. I’m charging $26.00/pair this year and none of my cooperators is batting an eye. $1.35 or whatever it is is criminal, and a fleecing of America. They have plenty of wiggle room in between those numbers.

Curious as to why? Is pasture ground such a commodity that they just have to pay the price? Are there not private landowners looking to rent pasture? Is the private ground over grazed and the feed quality just that much better?

With the cost of a cow I can’t believe to many new guys are getting into it, but the big guys are expanding and replacing cows constantly.

 

[Gellar]

I am not on board for ANYONE paying any more than what we already do. I feel that we are ALL being taken to the cleaners by the government as it currently stands.

More permits and taxes and more fee's is just more government tyranny that NONE of us need (or should want) in our lives and it does nothing but create division and animosity amongst groups of people. Besides, your kidding yourself if you think they will use the money for what it was intended for instead of just pi$$ing that money away with pet projects/secret backdoor programs.

Now, if you want to fight for LESS Permits and LESS government involvement in our lives, most of us can get on board with that. Give the government an inch and they take a mile and they wont give $hit back to you.

I bet you are the kind of guy that calls the local government office when you see a government employee getting a coffee and donut on his lunch break at the gas station because “they are working for me” and they are wasting government money.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I bet you are the kind of guy that calls the local government office when you see a government employee getting a coffee and donut on his lunch break at the gas station because “they are working for me” and they are wasting government money.

Nice job of saying you work for the govt without saying you work for the government.

 

[Gellar]

Nice job of saying you work for the govt without saying you work for the government.

Sorry, are you more the kind of guy that calls and asks to use a trailer because you need to move a few things and you bought that trailer with your tax dollars?

 

[Hunting Wife]

Curious as to why? Is pasture ground such a commodity that they just have to pay the price? Are there not private landowners looking to rent pasture? Is the private ground over grazed and the feed quality just that much better?

With the cost of a cow I can’t believe to many new guys are getting into it, but the big guys are expanding and replacing cows constantly.

Multiple reasons. Conversion to crop land is high. A landowner is going to charge a rental rate that competes with the alternative of just converting the grass to crop or some other development. A lot of the guys with cows are land-poor locally. Land is expensive, and they can’t afford to buy enough land of their own to run enough cows to make a living.

My rental rate is tied to the average private rental rate in the state, so it’s right in line with what they’re paying to graze private. Though we give them deductions for maintenance work, grazing improvements, spraying weeds, etc- things we would normally need to do but can’t get done due to lack of staff.