Dubya Leaves More Children Behind....

[RockyDog]

i agree with you on the "rich life experience".

Still dont see why anybody would want to cut funding for sports. 1pointer said it best. All i would add is sports build character, and obesity is now the number 1 killer in america so why would we want to cut out athletics.

Maybe we should just cut girls sports??? haha

 

[dgibson]

RockyDog, I don't think anyone has said yet that school sports should be abolished altogether.

1_p, you're right about the facilities being used for PE as well. I would argue that generic PE doesn't require such an elaborate setup (i.e., a regulation baseball diamond, football field, etc.), nor stands, nor lights and PA systems, nor popcorn cleanup crews, nor heavy-duty insurance policies. So on and so forth.

I also call BS on the "sports can pay for college" angle, for the same reason I call BS on the tournament bonus thing. Those kids are the exception, not the rule. Also, there are a lot of college athletes who barely make the grade in academics, and that's a shame. What's the next step, to say that it can lead to a pro contract? That's even MORE unlikely.

I do like WH's idea, or something like it. Any time a school district considers dropping money from academic programs while sports still receives full funding, there's something wrong. Athletics are great, but the return on investment (meaning what the kid ultimately gets out of it) are very slim.

 

[1_pointer]

Sure paying for college is the exception, but so is one getting a full academic scholarship. Should we drop the advanced classes? We agree more than we disagree, even if you are a 'Tuck!

I also agree with most of what BS wrote. Most fail at high school because of lack of motivation which often starts with the parents or lack there of.

FWIW, every sports team I was apart of in high school had multiply fundraisers to support the team. Baseball worked the consession stands at the Frog Follies, all work done on the field (even putting up the lights) was done with voluteers and donated equipment. Football had fundraisers with people donating $/lb lifted in a team competition.

 

[RockyDog]

I see those high school jocks all the time. Riding around in their mercedes, or on their pimped out school buses wearing gold chains and fur coats. They gots all the bling, bling, we need to cut them down a notch.

Nobody was there to pay may college, except an athletic scholarship. Nowadays its expected that parents fork out $30k per year so your kid can go to school for 4 years and then decide they dont really wanna do that anymore...now thats a bunch of BS

 

[Washington Hunter]

Kids should pay for their own college. Parents should be saving for retirement, not putting kids through school. That's what low interest student loans are for.

 

[MarlandS]

Rocky, around here it's not "everybody who's working" that pays for schools it's property owners. If you rent you and have kids in school you aren't paying near as much (just book rental etc) as the old retired farmer who has a couple of hundred acres or the widow who has an 80K house.

Also here you do have to pay to participate in sports , $75 per sport.

Yeah sports build character, the "star" athletes get a pass on misbehaving while other kids get detention for minor infractions , same way it was 23 years ago when I graduated at a different school.

 

[MarlandS]

Originally posted by Washington Hunter:
Kids should pay for their own college. Parents should be saving for retirement, not putting kids through school. That's what low interest student loans are for.

that's also what academic scholarships are for, sports last until you can't do them anymore, an education is forever.. besides it reduces the number of people spelling like Moosie

 

[dgibson]

Rocky, my brother and I both busted our asses and worked through college. Our parents didn't contribute a dime because they didn't have it to give. We both graduated with good records and got good jobs on the other side. I'm still paying for mine. Lots of other kids do the same. You had someone to help you through college: yourself. If you got an athletic scholarship, then good for you! I hope you didn't waste it by partying and skating through 4 years of college, making a name for your ball team.

Sure paying for college is the exception, but so is one getting a full academic scholarship. Should we drop the advanced classes?

Tyler, the whole point is that the education is its own reward. Whether you get an academic scholarship or not is irrelevant. But I think you knew that already, Mr. Doctoral Candidate or whatever you are.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I hate it when you guys hi-jack my thread... The purpose of this thread is to bash Dubya. Let me show you....

Here is an article about ANOTHER of Dubya's Cabinet Secretarys with out a clue...

When Education Secretary Rod "Teachers Are Terrorists" Paige visited a St. Louis school yesterday, he wasn't prepared for students' hard questions:

Craig Szczesiul, 18 and a senior at Metro, told Paige that St. Louis school officials were studying budget cuts of $23 million, including cuts in support for gifted, art, music and athletic programs.

"Everyone agrees there are problems, but we have no idea what to do. Can you help us with ideas about how to fix the problem?" Szczesiul said to thunderous applause.

Paige replied, "I think you stumped me with that question."

Paige went on to say that issues surrounding public education should be figured out by the residents of each state. He noted the success of Atlanta in attracting the Summer Olympics in 1996 after people of all races and economic and political backgrounds worked together.

After Paige concluded his answer, he said, "I didn't get any applause." The students clapped.

Does Secretary Paige thinks he deserves applause for telling students he has no answer to the millions in Bush education budget cuts?


Or, if you really think this post was about the No Child Left Behind....
For the last 5 years, every Monday morning, I spend 90 minutes in grade school classrooms, helping as a volunteer in my kid's classes. It is amazing to see how much time is spent testing the kids on the various Testing Standards, required becuase Dubya wants to hold schools "accountable".

These kids will spend a whole week being tested. Talk about time away from instruction.... (These are K-5 kids)

Sports Facilities
I hardly think there are wastes of money on the gyms in the schools around here. Ours is also used as a lunch room, and has tables that fold back into the wall.

And I am not sure what type of school Cali is talking about, but in the grade schools here, PE is mandatory, 3 days per week. In middle school, they do it 1/2 the year, for 7-9 grades. And in High School, they have to take a full year of PE or they are allowed to take TWO sports instead.

Funding of Extra Curricular activities
Around here, the head coach of the Varsity Basketball and Football teams (both boys and girls) gets 8% of their salary. Assitant coaches get less, middle school coaches get less percent.

And I believe the starting wage is $22k per year. So if you figure the number of hours these coaches put in, likely 10-20 hours per week coaching, they likely get paid LESS than they do for the teaching part of their job.

Pay to Play
The kids around here on the teams are constantly raising money in addition to the "activity" fee they are charged.

Value of Sports
Another value of Sports, that I can't believe all you old farts are ignoring is the "community" that comes from the High School Football Field or the High School Gym on game nights. When I go to the games, I run into all sorts of people to visit with, catch up with, etc... And in our all too busy lives, it is nice to be able to BS with somebody and watch a game.

Bands And Dance Teams
Not only do the sports provide opportunity for the kids that are playing, it also provides opportunity for the kid with the clarinet and the gal that wants to dance at Half Time. By the time you add up all the kids on the teams, in the band, on the dance team, in the Cheerleader group, you end up with a large number of kids with something to do other than play X-Box.

Young Teachers vs. Old Teachers
I really don't think some teacher with "life experience" is very important for k-12. I would think that Reading Riting, and Rithmatic are independent of 'experience', and need to be taught. I can tell you after spending time in crowded classrooms, I would guess most old people wouldn't want to tolerate kids, nor have the energy to manage 28 second graders.

Teacher Pay
It is horribly low, at least in Idaho, as we have a Republican legislature, that prides itself on starving education. It is all intended to be self-sustaining, as the less educated the Idaho kids are, the more likely they will vote Republican.

I had one teacher tell me, that with 3 kids at home, he qualified for food stamps. What a lousy situation, where you have good teachers, eligible for welfare.

 

[pawclaws]

OK liberal, you want to save the world, and give the kids the moon; fine, but you pay for it! By the way pal the accountability through testing wasn't Bush's idea. It is your board of education's knee jerk reaction to a fear of a loss of mismanaged federal funds. Finally; teachers don't get paid per anum, they get paid per 3/4-num. (By the way, add 60 percent to that 22K start figure for benies and vacations.)

 

[Washington Hunter]

Just did a little searching, and came up with the average teacher's salary in the country for 2001-02....$44,367. Not bad.

The average beginning teacher makes $30,719. Again, not bad. Especially when you figure in all the time off teachers get. I would love to have the entire summer off and still get paid. It would be great being able to scout all summer.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Elkgunner, figures for Idaho...average salary is $39,194, and average starting salary $25,316.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I do pay for it.... We call it property taxes, which in Idaho, are assesed on your current market value, so rising property prices result in increasing taxes. We also pay sales taxes, which are supposed to go to schools (but they get hi-jacked all the time).

And I have no idea when the last time you were in a school, but here, the teachers get paid for 12 months, and it adds up to some low amount. Their contracts are 12 month contracts, and have xxx days of instruction. They get no vacation, I think they get a half dozen days for sick, and they get 2 "personal leave" days (funerals, etc..). I have no idea why you would add 60% for that???

There is no way you can convince me that an Idaho teacher is well-paid. It ain't so. I know some who fight fires in the summer, and they make as much in the summer, as they do the other 9 months. I know some that paint houses, and do similar. But, they choose to go back to teaching, as that is what they enjoy doing, and they take other jobs to supplement their vocation/avocation.

One of my hunting buddies is a grade school teacher with a Masters degree, been teaching 16 years. And his wife cuts hair. She makes more than he does. It is interesting what our society values.

I would never do it in the k-12 schools, but I have often thought of teaching under-graduate classes, for a bit of a change.

Paws, and as for the testing, everybody that sends money to schools, wants to see results, and they all have their own set of standards that they want to see as results. If you spend your whole life tin-cupping for $$$, then you end up having to jump thru whatever hoops the Feds give you, the State Board gives you, and the Private Enodwments. Anyway you look at it, due to funding formulas, an incredible amount of time is spend away from educating the kids, and merely testing or preparing for testing.

 

[MarlandS]

Gunner you touched upon a key point to all this, THEY CHOOSE THEIR PROFESSION. They make the life choices just like you and I do. I take lots of risk when I could go get a 9-5 in an office and double what I do now. I don't choose to though, my bad. Same thing with teachers, biggest difference is I don't want people to feel sorry for me for my choices.

I know $25/hour with beenies out the wazoo auto workers who think they are underpaid for what they do.. it's the American way, choose your profession then whine about it.

 

[JoseCuervo]

MarS,
I don't want to feel sorry for the teachers, nor do I think they want pity. But I think it just perpetuates a myth that they are getting rich, working part-time, and enjoying large benefits.

There are certain professions that I would NEVER do, as I don't have the stomach, tolerance, patience, demeanor, etc..., (Example: Nurse, Anything in Healthcare, Elementary Teacher, Counselor, Cop, etc...), and those jobs I value that somebody else will do them. So, I don't begrudge them making a "living wage".

We also value many jobs as "core" to this nation. Why else would we have a Farm Bill that assures certain prices to Ag Producers, or subsides, or other transfer payments? Because, as a nation, we think farmers provide a "core" value, and we don't want to be dependent on other countries for food. (Not implying that you are at the proverbial trough). I think Education and Health Care would be other areas, that are "core" to our nation.


And actually, I would likely not advocate more $$$ per teacher, but I would advocate more teachers per building, and more buildings per district, so we could get the ratios in our local district back down to the state guidelines. Which would result in improved performance for the kids, and likely less burn-out for the teachers.

In my experience in the class rooms, 1/3 of the kids are no problem, 1/3 are huge problems, taking up 50% of the teacher's attention, and the remaining 1/3 are getting lost.

If the guidelines for Kindergarten are 18:1, and the teacher is at 28:1, the quality of education for the 2/3 who are not a problem suffers, as the low 1/3 just increased by 50%, and the teacher's time is now at 75% on the bottom 9 kids.

(As an aside, it was interesting that ErikinAlaska's solution to the problem was to Federalize the education of our kids. That seems like a Liberal's solution to the problem, build a Federal Program to solve a State's problem....)

Erik, welcome to the Left side.....

 

[ELKCHSR]

It was in the news a few years ago, that the bastion of Social spending was done in the Washington DC area, more per student was spent to keep them educated there with public dollars than any where else, it was also purported that they had the worst grade scores in the nation. This should be proof enough that money is not the fix, the way Paw put it in his first post on this thread is a pretty sharp way to run a system, gone are the day's of plowing fields and harvesting, so we don't need to let the little buggers run free for the whole summer, it is also shown that kids lose a lot of info by being absent from lessons for the time involved for summer vacation. I was just in Washington a couple weeks ago and dropped a nephew into the Port Orchard School curriculum, there they only have half day's because all of the extra stuff has been dropped from the school list. Such things as study hall, stupid classes and lunch. They run two shifts at the school and move some 3000 kids thru the program every day...I don't think that is really a bad investment of time and resources. But I know that other school programs won't try and better themselves by upgrading and removing certain programs and classes. They like most of the rest of the Government wallow in waste as if it were an Olympic swimming pool that will never run dry.

 

[Bambistew]

It was in the news a few years ago, that the bastion of Social spending was done in the Washington DC area, more per student was spent to keep them educated there with public dollars than any where else, it was also purported that they had the worst grade scores in the nation.

Do you know what the race make up of DC is? 70+% african american just like it is here in Baltimore 67%. Very few of the "others" send their children to public schools there because they are so bad. Its not the teachers fault its the parents letting their worthless little jonny do what every they want... Just a couple trouble makers drag down the whole class.

Do you think it has any thing to do with their family values? Those people are handed everything they get because their "special". Now they expect it. They aren't held accountable for anything because they were opressed for 400 years. They pull the race card every chance they get. Untill you live with it everyday you have know idea what its like.

If Bush wants to make this No Child Left Behind work he needs to go to root of the problem the worthless parents and make them accountable some how.

 

[pawclaws]

Sports is not the reason the kids are in school. There is ittle purpose to using public funds for non-academic purposes when dealing with education. You want to cure obesity? Unplug the sattelite dish, put together neighborhood softball teams, or even school softball teams. The point is we don't need to be spending public money to produce allstars who can not calculate the interest in their bank accounts or balance a check book. Teachers don't make enough money??? I'd say that based on performance or "quality" units produced they are way overpaid on the whole. However; you want to give them a pay raise cut out the fluff and I'll bet every one could double their income from the savings derived. Fact is our education system is a miserable failure. If I've learned nothing else I did manage to learn this one thing; "Keep on doing things the same way, and you get the same results." I think it is time we try something different, maybe even radical. Aren't our kids worth it?

 

[Canoe]

Sounds like someone didn't make the football team....

 

[Erik in AK]

I must admit my advocating the federalization of public education is a departure from my otherwise conservative POV.

Our schools are broken and its the only thing I could come up with that might possibly fix the problem.