Crossbows and trapping, again

[AvidIndoorsman]

@88man
Why introduce wolves and pressure a strained resource????
Red Herring

I thought a goal was to introduce more people to the sport of hunting?

Also a red herring... but I'll bite.
1. I don't actually think elk hunting is a good way to introduce people to hunting.
2. September is the least ethical time of the year for first time elk hunter to hunt (even if you killed 100 whitetail), it's hot, elk are up high and typically further back, and therefore meat spoilage risk is dramatically increased.
3. I highly doubt that any, or at least any significant number of the 300,000 people who elk hunted CO last year were introduced to hunting with crossbow.
4. I don't think that not allowing crossbows during the OTC archery season in CO will have any impact of the potential recruitment of new hunters whatsoever

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

The population of the U.S. continually rises and conversely the number of hunters continues to decline as a percentage of that population. Since the money for conservation, habitat, etc. has to come from the people participating in hunting, i.e. license and tag sales, and Pittman-Robinson monies, etc. wouldn't it follow that someone who values conservation and hunting should be also concerned about the downward trend of hunting participation? Yet, it seems that the overwhelming majority of hunters constantly complain about "too many hunters in the woods," and a fair amount of hunters also want hunting to be more difficult, more challenging, (can't use a crossbow) etc. Ask a hunter to take you out and show you the ropes and very few will take you up on it for fear of divulging "their honey holes" as if the public land belongs to them alone. Given these views and the trends of less people going outside, does anyone fear for the future of hunting? It is all well and good that, for those in the fields now, there should be less hunters out there, but what about the future of hunting? Isn't this a selfish point of view?

Does it matter how many hunters there are if there are no elk to hunt.

That is a national not a necessarily a regional trend and has no bearing on whether crossbows should be allowed in OTC archery in CO.

 

[redhub1]

Does it matter how many hunters there are if there are no elk to hunt.

That is a national not a necessarily a regional trend and has no bearing on whether crossbows should be allowed in OTC archery in CO.

And how do you propose there will be "no elk to hunt?" How, in your mind, do we get to the point of "no elk to hunt?"

 

[88man]

And how do you propose there will be "no elk to hunt?" How, in your mind, do we get to the point of "no elk to hunt?"

He must have googled it and copied and pasted

 

[TOGIE]

And how do you propose there will be "no elk to hunt?" How, in your mind, do we get to the point of "no elk to hunt?"

by putting every tom dick harry and jane in the woods in september with a rifle, crossbow, muzzleloader, throwing axe, spear, and grenade launcher, cuz that what the people want. ain't no elk like a dead elk amiright?

the hunter numbers trend thing is irrelevant here. western states seem to continually see record numbers of applications while the overall nationwide trend is that the percentage as a function of the total population is decreasing

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Desert Bighorn
-Rifle only, no archery or muzzy

RMB Sheep and Goat
-Archery season and Rifle season, some units have a rifle season and no archery season


Hunter recruitment is going to decline... what about those poor guys who want to hunt with a muzzy. It's not fair. What about the children...

We shoot 13 deer a year in Mississippi, therefore I should at least be able to get a sheep tag every year.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

And how do you propose there will be "no elk to hunt?" How, in your mind, do we get to the point of "no elk to hunt?"

We get there by sportsman not focusing on herd health as the primary goal.

I think luckily by and large CPW holds this as their primary goal and makes decisions to further that end.

 

[redhub1]

by putting every tom dick harry and jane in the woods in september with a rifle, crossbow, muzzleloader, throwing axe, spear, and grenade launcher, cuz that what the people want. ain't no elk like a dead elk amiright?

the hunter numbers trend thing is irrelevant here. western states seem to continually see record numbers of applications while the overall nationwide trend is that the percentage as a function of the total population is decreasing

So you're saying that crossbows will be the end of elk? But we're ok with rifles...seems to me that if your argument to keep elk on the landscape is to make it harder to harvest, then you would be fine with no rifles or compound bows either. Traditional archery only. Maybe flintlocks? And then, if that is too effective, we'll get rid of those hunts too.

 

[TOGIE]

So you're saying that crossbows will be the end of elk?

nope

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

So you're saying that crossbows will be the end of elk? But we're ok with rifles...seems to me that if your argument to keep elk on the landscape is to make it harder to harvest, then you would be fine with no rifles or compound bows either. Traditional archery only. Maybe flintlocks? And then, if that is too effective, we'll get rid of those hunts too.

No.

I'm saying that crossbows added to unlimited archery seasons will increase pressure on elk.

If CPW added crossbows as a method of take with a muzzy tag or even as a method of take during a limited archery season that would be fine. In both of those cases participation is controlled via quotas and can be adjusted downward if necessary.
I also have no problem with crossbows being used during rifle seasons.

I have no inherent bias against any method of take.

I'm simply looking at cause and effect.
CO pushed the deer dates back. I bet next year the quota during 3rd and 4th season get dropped significantly.
If CO allowed scopes on muzzys I bet the quotas would get lowered.
Participation in archery season is going up a lot, I bet in the next 5 years the state goes full limited with no OTC seasons, or splits the seasons.


If you hang out on the forum enough you see threads from every group of hunters wanting a bigger slice of the pie; rifle v bow, crossbow v. archery, R v. NR, rifle hunters wanting longer seasons, archery elk hunters not wanting overlapping rifle bear season, rifle hunters wanting early season deer tags so they can kill one in the velvet.

I try to respond the same way on each of them.
How does your position effect the resource how does it effect all other hunters. I'm not suggesting crossbows are nefarious, just that we need to be thoughtful about how they are integrated into our system.

 

[88man]

So what your saying is the crossbow hunters will take to many elk? BUT BUT the crossbow hunters are not the best skilled hunters? I think more elk will be harvested by the most skilled and dedicated hunters and it does not matter if a bow or crossbow is carried afield.

@wllm1313 are you in favor of wolf introduction or wolf expansion in Colorado?

 

[MTLabrador]

So you're saying that crossbows will be the end of elk? But we're ok with rifles...seems to me that if your argument to keep elk on the landscape is to make it harder to harvest, then you would be fine with no rifles or compound bows either. Traditional archery only. Maybe flintlocks? And then, if that is too effective, we'll get rid of those hunts too.

I think you’ll also find that hunting elk during most rifle seasons, which typically happen in October and later, is a much different game than hunting the rut.

 

[Mtnhunter1]

I just read through this thread....hear are my thoughts.....@wllm1313, keep fighting the good fight!!!

I have nothing against crossbows being used by the masses but legalizing them for OTC archery only seasons would be a mistake as @wllm1313 has tried to relate.

Be careful what you wish for as you might not like the end results of that wish........

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

So what your saying is the crossbow hunters will take to many elk? BUT BUT the crossbow hunters are not the best skilled hunters? I think more elk will be harvested by the most skilled and dedicated hunters and it does not matter if a bow or crossbow is carried afield.

@wllm1313 are you in favor of wolf introduction or wolf expansion in Colorado?

Wolves are already in Colorado, so I feel any introduction discussion is moot. I will vote no on any ballot measure.

In favor of wolf expansions? Not sure what you mean. Do I think we should SSS wolves. No I think sportsman should follow the law.
I do think CPW and CO sportsman should take whatever legal steps are necessary to secure state management of wolves.

Wolves in CO - from CPAW

Their presence is/was inevitable hopefully residents can act pragmatically manage our herds with this new variable. (Can we keep the SSS comments to a minimum and the discussion on the rails)

www.hunttalk.com

Colorado wolves

Tester (D - MT) and Simpson (R - ID) placed a rider within a Federal funding bill to legalize wolf hunting. Good on Tester and Simpson. The simpson-Tester delisting rider was to reissue the 2009 delisting rule that carved Wyoming out, and put a prohibition on judicial intervention. It was a...

www.hunttalk.com

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Be careful what you wish for as you might not like the end results of that wish........

All I'm trying to say

 

[SFC B]

@SFC B
I have never hunted archery and started hunting late in life (AOH) at 33. I have hunted with a rifle and a shotgun in the south, midwest and west. During the entire time I have hunted I have had to listen to the argument (ESPECIALLY in IN) surrounding crossbow usage. For my purposes I will except the disability and old age accommodations (which I think almost all are good with). These are what seem to be the issues to me (and I have NO personal dog in this fight)

Whitetail in IN on mostly private is a different situation than elk on public land in CO

1) Many (not all) archery hunters seem to have serious superiority complexes. Archers are "better, more serious" hunters than rifle/ML hunters......then it is recurve hunters better than compound.....then it is primitive better than recurve.....then personally built bow better than "store bought" etc. ALL of them seem to get a case of the a$$ about crossbows and think they shouldn't be included in archery at all (see the "crossrifle" comment above). These attitudes lead to the 2nd issue....

While this may be true it has nothing to do with the issue of crossbows in OTC season in CO. On a personal level some people may not want crossbows in CO for this reason, on a resource level this reasoning is irrelevant.

2) Since these archery hunters feel they are "better, more serious" they feel entitled to much longer seasons which nearly always give them the opportunity to hunt the rut (where most states don't do that for other means of taking) and, the ugly unsaid undercurrent, more opportunity at TROPHY ANIMALS.

Archery for elk typically has lower harvest rates, which allows for long seasons and hunting in the rut, that's the bottom line of management. Lower the success rates and you can increase other variables. MT, UT, CO, off the top of my head all allow you to hunt the rut with a rifle in specific units where management goals + harvest rates allow it. (EE010E1R in CO, back country units in Mt, or EB3045 in Utah)

If we are worried about too many animals being taken why not simply shorten the season and limit tags like the other means of take?

CO already has the some of the shortest hunting seasons in the west, and bifurcating the archery season has already been proposed regardless of the crossbow issue, as OTC archery crowding has become an issue. Further biologist have noted that increased human activity hunting and non-consumptive disturbs elk enough in the rut to be of concern. That is one reason the SW CO units went fully limited for archery.

Too many humans in the woods in Sept, period.

If archery hunters do it for the "additional challenge" why would you care how someone else hunts? If you are hunting "for meat" how about only FEMALE tags being OTC?

PG. 37 of the big game brochure, Colorado has OTC cow elk archery tags. Though in many units this is problematic, elk aren't whitetails. Some of are herds are in decline killing more cows will destroy the resource. Cow quotas in many units have been dramatically reduced or even removed.

Indiana has 680,000 whitetails. CO, WY,MT, ID, and WA combined have that many elk. Apples to Oranges in terms of management.

All of these (and I am sure there are other similar approaches) would address concerns while you could still expand hunting opportunity with crossbows. Again, I have no dog in the fight other than hoping for the hunting community to be MORE united and inclusive instead of being factional and spiteful.

You can already hunt CO with a crossbow, during the rifle season? Crossbow hunters aren't excluded in CO, you just can't use them in the archery season. Further for whatever reason you can't hunt with a bow you can get a muzzy tag, and hunt during the same time period. I would support crossbows during the muzzy season as they tags are fully limited, just not in the OTC seasons.

In my mind this discussion has nothing to do with being inclusive but rather has to do with a single interest group being selfish. There are numerous opportunities for anyone who wants to hunt in CO. Someone with a disability who want's to hunt the rut can already get a crossbow permit, a kid or older individual can already hunt the rut with a muzzy, or in some units with a rifle. If you really just like crossbows, take one out during 1st rifle, the elk are still bugling and the rut.

The job of CPW is to manage wildlife, it's not to placate hunters by making sure everyone gets to hunt elk during their favorite season with their favorite weapon.

I've hunted CO archery, rifle, and muzzy.

-----------------------------------------------
Food for thought with SW CO as an example. Those units just went fully limited for archery.
Let's look at 751

2006 - 449 total elk killed
1407 total Rifle hunters, 28% success rate, 395 elk killed
257 Archery hunters, 14% success rate, 35 elk

2019 - 222 total elk killed
973 total Rifle hunters, 16% success rate, 153 elk killed
423 Archery hunters, 13% success rate, 57 elk killed

So in this unit the total harvest declined by 1/2, rifle success rates and number of hunters cratered, yet archery harvests and hunter numbers doubled, and success rates stayed the same.

This is a pretty common theme throughout CO, across the board rifle seasons have fewer hunters and archery seasons have doubled or more. Unit 53 went from 406 hunters in 2005 to 1045 in 2019.

Over this same time period 2006-2019, Colorado added 1 million residents 20% growth. Aug-Sept is the nicest time to be in the woods. Think about how many more bikers, hikes, etc we are adding into elk habitat each fall.

Why would we add more people into the mix? Why put further pressure on a strained resource.

A couple of things. Having been in CO now for 10 years (7 hunting seasons) I am well aware of the differences between Midwest hunting an Western hunting. The mention of Indiana was specifically about the basic argument for/against crossbows during archery season. NOT a comparison between the actual hunting.

Perhaps I was not clear enough about the crossbow during archery season with respect to OTC......I don't think that OTC archery hunting for elk in it's present form given some of the crowds we have (and that are growing) is sustainable long term. BUT, to do it for compound and not crossbows is pretty hypocritical. Comparing a crossbow with a ML is pretty far off....like a ML with open sights to a rifle with optics. Reasonable range on a crossbow is MAYBE 15-20 yds past a compound, they are more cumbersome to carry and the possibility of a follow up shot is greatly reduced. They are simply easier to master.

The point about making OTC tags (again, I think present setup is not optimal) female only was only to make a point....that being that doing that would cut the numbers of those tags purchased monumentally. Out of state hunters especially don't dream the same way about a cow as they do a bull and would not make the trek and spend the $$$$ without at least a CHANCE at a bull.

As far as selfishness, I would say that non-crossbow archers trying to separate crossbow folks out, push them into another MUCH shorter season and saving opportunity for themselves (again, adjust tag system to address numbers if needed) would the selfish folks.

Just for perspective (again, I am well aware of the difference in hunting):

The year before crossbows were legal for all archery seasons (2010) there were 28,026 deer taken with archery equipment........in 2018 (all tags OTC) all archery equipment (including crossbows) there were 31,692 with total harvest varying between 111,000 and 134,000 up and down over that same time period. Not the "bow-pocalypse" that had been predicted. Given the blind-style hunting with shooting crossbows from rests I would say that this impact is even GREATER than it would be in a western style hunt moving on the ground. Food for thought.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

@SFC B
A couple of things. Having been in CO now for 10 years (7 hunting seasons) I am well aware of the differences between Midwest hunting an Western hunting. The mention of Indiana was specifically about the basic argument for/against crossbows during archery season. NOT a comparison between the actual hunting.

My apologies, that was an unfair assumption on my part.

Perhaps I was not clear enough about the crossbow during archery season with respect to OTC......I don't think that OTC archery hunting for elk in it's present form given some of the crowds we have (and that are growing) is sustainable long term. BUT, to do it for compound and not crossbows is pretty hypocritical. Comparing a crossbow with a ML is pretty far off....like a ML with open sights to a rifle with optics. Reasonable range on a crossbow is MAYBE 15-20 yds past a compound, they are more cumbersome to carry and the possibility of a follow up shot is greatly reduced. They are simply easier to master.

I agree, through the various crossbow threads I've changed my opinion a bit. I don't think the efficacy question shouldn't be a primary concern.
To be it's all about adding more hunters into a Unlimited quota. I'm ok with crossbows in muzzy season not because I think they are equivalent weapons but because all muzzy tags are limited. As far as limited archery goes, I guess I'm ok with that as well, given my aforementioned reasoning. I could be missing an angle on crossbows in a limited season in CO. In either case it would add new interest in those seasons and could increase point creep. Tha'ts not a reason to keep crossbows out but it's a consequence.

The point about making OTC tags (again, I think present setup is not optimal) female only was only to make a point....that being that doing that would cut the numbers of those tags purchased monumentally. Out of state hunters especially don't dream the same way about a cow as they do a bull and would not make the trek and spend the $$$$ without at least a CHANCE at a bull.

Gotcha... or maybe a spike hunt? Less biological impact than a cow, but still won't have the cache and therefore NR pull as a bull?

As far as selfishness, I would say that non-crossbow archers trying to separate crossbow folks out, push them into another MUCH shorter season and saving opportunity for themselves (again, adjust tag system to address numbers if needed) would the selfish folks.

Generally speaking I think the burden of proof, that increased/new opportunity doesn't negatively effect the resource, should be place on the group petitioning for a change. They also need to explain why they should be allowed to negatively effect the opportunity of other hunters. Like I said those who can't shoot a bow can already hunt during the rut, and those who want to use a crossbow already are allowed to during rifle seasons. No one is getting excluded, a subset of the community just wants a new opportunity. I see this petition and then this year I watch a ton of OTC opportunity disappear from archers as a ton of units go limited.

Just for perspective (again, I am well aware of the difference in hunting):

The year before crossbows were legal for all archery seasons (2010) there were 28,026 deer taken with archery equipment........in 2018 (all tags OTC) all archery equipment (including crossbows) there were 31,692 with total harvest varying between 111,000 and 134,000 up and down over that same time period. Not the "bow-pocalypse" that had been predicted. Given the blind-style hunting with shooting crossbows from rests I would say that this impact is even GREATER than it would be in a western style hunt moving on the ground. Food for thought.

This is exactly what I'm worried about.

Assuming that crossbow deer hunters had the same success rates as archery hunter there were 12% more hunters in the field after crossbows than before. If you extrapolate that to CO where there are 51485 archery hunters, there would be 57663 archery hunters after the addition of crossbows. So an increase of 6178, that's more than all of the archery hunters in the West Elks DAU E-5, units 53,54,63.

In my mind the entire argument boils down to that, do we throw 6000+ or whatever hunters into OTC archery. Do we put 6000 additional folks in the field. If you add a method of take to a limited season net net you aren't adding anyone. In a limited archery season there are say 200 tags. Before crossbows it's 200 archers after it's 24 crossbow hunters and 176 archers, some archers who previous drew may not but that's not my primary concern. In an OTC season there may have been 200 hunters before crossbows and 224 hunters after.

 

[88man]

The serious hunters who kill the elk will use bows! The not so serious and many older guys will buy a license hunt a little with a crossbow but they will be in camp with their friends and sons etc. I know its a big generalization. Cross bows succ to carry.

 

[Wildabeest]

 

[daltrix99]

The serious hunters who kill the elk will use bows! The not so serious and many older guys will buy a license hunt a little with a crossbow but they will be in camp with their friends and sons etc. I know its a big generalization. Cross bows succ to carry.

That's exactly the point of keeping crossbows out of regular archery season. The behavior of the elk (and often the decent weather) is what allows for successful archery harvest, albeit a notoriously low success rate. It is the 'serious' hunters, as you say, who get it done, especially when it comes to bull harvest on public land.

The 'non-serious' hunters ability to take elk at 100yds instead of 40yds is exactly the issue. Archery season should be difficult. The elk are particularly vulnerable, and often visible. It is difficult to convey via text the hunting pressure our elk experience on public land in Montana. It is constant, even during archery season. My n of 1 anecdotal opinion is that crossbows would absolutely tick that pressure up to a threshold that ends up being a net loss for both elk and hunters alike.

It's difficult to express an opinion like that without seeming elitist or to be gate-keeping. I get that. But, we as hunters need to have self-imposed barriers in place when it comes to fair chase. This (no crossbows during archery season) is a hard line for me in Montana, for all species.